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Again, if boys were innately better at maths/science than girls then in one of the top scorning nations of the world girls shouldn't be as good, and better, than boys. These PISA results discredit the innate ability argument at that level at least.
Geesh.
In general, boys do outperform girls in math and science. That's not even disputable. For some populations, that isn't the case. Black American girls outperform Black boys in math and science as well. That doesn't change the average among all boys and girls though. The Finns don't change that either.
You didn't do one thing to build this country. You were born, luckily, in American just like me. Our ancestors made the sacrifices. NOT US.
White, European men were the original founders of America. That is a fact. Not in dispute. Now they are reviled by Leftist educators. Wrong. Very wrong.
Again, i never said that i did anything to build this country. I'm just letting you know that whoever did build this country is absolutely no reflection on you. You know...since you're here to lecture us on who you think built this place.
I understand who found this country, but they are just ONE of the many groups who BUILT this country. My ancestors weren't immigrants, nor were they white, but they damn sure helped build this country.
BTW...your birth in this country is just as "lucky" as mine is.
Bad idea, the fact is there's a reason women aren't interested in STEM fields, with rare exceptions. There may be a few standouts but on the whole women simply just aren't wired to be into such things.
The problem is that the best person doesn't get the job. The guy usually gets the job.
They've done this study over and over where they put the exact same resume and a guy's name and a girl's name at the top and the guy gets more offers for higher salary.
Because it's usually men that have any real interest in it. Unlike lots of the men that go into STEM and similar fields how many women do you know spent their childhood creating/building things in their garage or spent lots of time tinkering with electronics and all kinds of similar things?
Sorry ladies, but this whole idea that men are oh so missing out at some incredible ground breaking innovative technological achievements without women couldn't be further from the truth. Even despite women being "kept down" men managed to go from sticks and stones to the MOON all without the help of women.
And the truth is I guarantee even in a hypothetical female-dominated world where women would have absolutely no excuse to be held back in anyway the vast majority of builders, innovators, creators, those getting into the nitty gritty and details etc. etc. etc. would STILL be men.
It explains that "science" is too broad of a meaning, and there are certain areas in "science" where women are doing just fine, along with men. But NOT when it comes specifically to math/physics/mechanics.
Therefore "science" is a deceptive term here, when it comes specifically to those subjects.
I did look at your post and provided a link for you to review. I expected you to look around that link if you wanted detailed information, or perhaps "take the test" yourself ,or look at sample questions. Some of the sample test files open as pdfs so linking them isn't working. Here is a google search for you, which is easier. You can open the first link (PISA take the test) and review what they mean by science. Go to page 189 for a discussion and you can also review the table of contents and sample questions.
Cassy, you realize that, in defense of your view that there are no essential gender differences with regard to math and science, you have pointed me toward an article reporting that boys outscored girls on the science part of the latest PISA test in every country in the world, with one lone exception (Finland).
Yes, I know that. Again, what I'm saying is rather simple. If boys are innately better than girls they should be innately better across the board. Further, if American boys score better than American girls because they are innately better it makes no sense that American boys do not score better than Fin girls and for that matter girls from several other countries. I don't know how else to say this.
When comparing kids in Finland, a nation that far outpaces the US, what accounts for these differences? That needs to be answered, especially by those of you who are purporting an intellectual gender divide having innate origin. Finland tells us it's not a matter of innate origin, but that something else is going that would explain gender differences.
Quote:
Have you ever heard of the expression - "the exception that proves the rule"? And PISA is testing 15-year-olds for ability appropriate to that age. I doubt there is much calculus, or any other "hard" math on that test. Show me a test of college senior level math on which Finnish women outscore Finnish men and I'll be impressed.
The exception to the rule is meaningless here, especially in science. What do you do for work? I'm in pharma and that exception to the rule is going to matter in my industry. That exception could kill someone, impact the efficacy of a therapy, etc. We don't ignore outliers. We explore them and figure out what's going on. I'm sure you do the same.
I also don't think we should consider calculus to be a hard math. At the very least calculus is not the line we should draw in the sand. That's not good for boys or girls imo. It's not a higher a math and higher maths are a more difficult conversation.
We see differences between gender going in both directions internationally. TIMSS more often shows boys outpacing girls, but there are several countries with girls outpacing boys. The trends for girls deviating away from math and science in the US is not about innate ability any more than American boys who deviate away from math and science (compared to other nations) is about innate ability. There is nothing in the data to suggest gender physiology. There is more than enough data that gives indication of social factors, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supachai
In general, boys do outperform girls in math and science. That's not even disputable. For some populations, that isn't the case. Black American girls outperform Black boys in math and science as well. That doesn't change the average among all boys and girls though. The Finns don't change that either.
The point I'm making is NOT that differences do not exist. My argument is that it's not due to innate ability. The gender and race arguments being made here sits on a correlation argument and that's just not good enough given the consequences. And this was exactly my point when I entered this thread. I had to deal with a bunch of baloney when i was coming of age- girls aren't good at this...girls are good at that. I believed my lack of interest in HS was due to not having a natural knack. Maths was too hard.
What did I come to find out? That was a bunch of horse manure. It was more about overcoming fear and a requirement of effort and organizational approach more than anything. There is very little the vast majority of us cannot do or learn with some effort. What sucks as a parent is that I have to raise my girls to navigate around this bias that is very much alive and well. There are people who are going to set limits on their potential because they are girls. I don't know how to get them not to internalize this nonsense. Most girls do.
That would be a repeat of the many decades women were perfectly good candidates but were turned away simply because they didn't have the right equipment down there.
Again, if boys were innately better at maths/science than girls then in one of the top scorning nations of the world girls shouldn't be as good, and better, than boys. These PISA results discredit the innate ability argument at that level at least.
Geesh.
Cassy, did you have a chance to take a glance at the questions of this PISA test? It's now 4:58 AM in California, I'm half sleeping, and still I was able to do all the sample questions right.
"Why the speed of meteorites is increasing when they approaching Earth?
"The meteoroid is attracted to the mass of Earth."
Realy?
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