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Paternity fraud is a real thing. Willful paternity fraud. The thing that is troublesome is that it is a teeny minority problem compared to the problem of men spreading their seed with willful disregard for the resultant children.
Yes in that women lie about it but that lie can not force the fraud to occur. Again a man voluntarily signs acknowledgement. How is one defrauded if you enter freely into an agreement having the means to know 99.9% that what you are signing is true.
If you don't know you are still saying I accept responsibility or acquiesce.
If you willingly buy a house without and inspection, title search, appraisal, etc. and get stuck with a lemon paying the remainder of the sellers mortgage or having encroachments were you defrauded or is it buyer beware.
Yes in that women lie about it but that lie can not force the fraud to occur. Again a man voluntarily signs acknowledgement. How is one defrauded if you enter freely into an agreement having the means to know 99.9% that what you are signing is true.
If you don't know you are still saying I accept responsibility or acquiesce.
If you willingly buy a house without and inspection, title search, appraisal, etc. and get stuck with a lemon paying the remainder of the sellers mortgage or having encroachments were you defrauded or is it buyer beware.
I am going to go one step further that this entire thread represents the unknowing expectation of privilege that many men operate under. The law ought to protect them from the risk of this inconvenience.
I am going to go one step further that this entire thread represents the unknowing expectation of privilege that many men operate under. The law ought to protect them from the risk of this inconvenience.
Aye. Men (in general) are so used to being in the privileged position in most things that when, for once, they aren't privileged it feels like oppression to them.
Your really not in a perfectly good healthy relationship if your partner is having an affair or you don't trust your partner are you.
Life is a B ain't it. People have cheated and deceived one another since day 1. Thats not going to change. Years after I was divorced/widowed I learned that my husband had an affair and a child with another woman. See it happens the other way around also.
The point is a man has the right to not sign a BC and not sign any acknowledgement of paternity. Generally to be defrauded something of value has been taken from you, in this scenario specifically child support money. If you dont sign you are not made to pay child support without a DNA test showing you are the biological father.
So how bad is it to have, love and raise a child that you find out one day that the only thing that changed is that child does not carry your DNA? Do you just shut it off, no longer love the child you raised?
I find it odd so many men say "I wont raise another mans kid" when so many people willingly love and raise other peoples kids.
My brother reunited with his HS sweetheart after years apart. She had a infant by a man who wanted nothing to do with them. They married had another kid, now have three grandchildren. I believe my brother is closer with the child that is not biologically his.
How does anyone know that their partner is cheating on them? You've been cheated on. Were you 100% positive they were cheating from the first incident? Probably not, probably not for quite a while, you might even have been shocked to learn it and it caught you blindsided.
You can bluster all you like, doesn't make it right.
And no not all men have to sign an AOP, presumption of paternity exists in most states where the biological mother is married to a man, it is presumed in law that the man is the legal father. Even in liberal California this is the case. The method to avoid this presumption is to file a challenge that you think the child may not be yours, yeah, that's going to go down well post partum mom, Dad filing challenge, I forsee single parent family in that future.
How bad is it to continue a relationship with a child you believed was yours, only to discover it was not? I dunno, I got fixed at 25 not wanting kids, if my partner became pregnant I know it ain't mine. 100% certain guaranteed. However if this led to a bad break up it may be significant, that child may be a constant reminder of your betrayal by someone you care(d) deeply about. It's not my place to judge how someone responds in that situation, any more than it's not my place to judge whether women choose to carry to term or terminate. Further what of the biological father, what of his parental rights, does he have any? He was never informed of any chance he was a father, he was omitted from the entire process. How is that redressed?
That's where it gets kind of weird, legally. Because there's no penalty for ignoring any potential father. Clearly wrongly naming the father causes injury to two people, the person named as the father incorrectly, whether or not he accepts his partners word, and the biological father, who is omitted. While it can be argued that a mother may not intentionally name the wrong father, you cannot unintentionally omit a prospective paternal candidate.
Fraud is defined broadly as intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right. In all cases of wrongfully naming a father, every mother doing that literally by definition commits fraud, because at very least they are intentionally deceiving to deprive a victim of a legal right.
Aye. Men (in general) are so used to being in the privileged position in most things that when, for once, they aren't privileged it feels like oppression to them.
When parents are unmarried, Mother has custody of any child born out of wedlock. Furthermore, Father has ZERO parenting rights by default. What that means is that Dad is not allowed to see the child at all- not even 15 minutes- if Mom does not allow it. In fact, Dad will be arrested if he tries. The only way Dad can get any parenting rights at all is to file in court, which usually results in some small token amount. Almost never does Dad get custody in this situation.
So you have a situation where one gender is given 100% full rights, and one gender is given 0 rights. Nothing, zip, nada. Imagine if you will a scenario where the script was flipped, and it was decided that moving forward Dad was granted 100% parenting rights (Mom zero) when parents are unmarried. That story would be on the cover of every newspaper, it would be the lead on every news show, and it would be discussed on every radio show. Yet this subject is rarely if ever discussed now.
I believe that this policy rises to the level of a large scale human rights violation (remember, not only are Dads rights being trampled on, but also all children born out of wedlock). It's really not that dissimilar to slavery, or anti semitism, or discrimination against people that are handicapped. Perhaps the best analogy would be many decades ago when women were not allowed to vote. Of course that was wrong, why should one gender be given full rights and the other 0? How is this policy any different then women being prohibited from voting?
By the way, I have never been personally effected by this policy. I do have one child from a previous marriage, but I was married to Mom at the time so this has nothing to do with me being effected personally.
There's this old saying - "Mama's baby - Daddy's...maybe" which is the reason for the above. If a man doesn't establish paternity of a child he has no rights to the child. The mother gave birth to the child - it is known it is hers. It is not known that a man is the father of a child unless they get tested - not even those born within the confines of marriage. Marriage, however, gives the husband "rights" to the child.
So the privilege you cite is biological. Someone has to be on the hook for taking care of a kid - the person who it came out of is the first choice as responsible party.
I'll also note that you don't have to go to court to establish paternity. If you have had a DNA test and are listed on a child's birth certificate, you have rights to your child as a man where I live. I have an in-law who had a fling with a woman and who hoped the kid wasn't his. He got a DNA test the day the child was born, turned out he was the father. He got his name on the birth certificate before they left the hospital and he has always had joint custody of his child. The child is over a decade old now. So all the sob stories to me are unnecessary. In today's world, most states have a pretty easy process for fathers to establish paternity and FWIW I'd think you'd all want to do so before you invest in a child under false pretenses.
I am a genealogical researcher and so far I've identified 4 people in my family, including 2 direct ancestors whose fathers were not their fathers. Mama's baby, Daddy's....maybe has always been a "thing."
And no not all men have to sign an AOP, presumption of paternity exists in most states where the biological mother is married to a man, it is presumed in law that the man is the legal father.
This is true. And from a legal and societal standpoint, I am not 100% convinced it is bad. 100% of the time what is good for the kid(s) is good for society. 100% of the time getting into adultery and measuring "fault" of divorce is a massive waste of time and taxpayer money. Is it ideal that this is bad for some individuals. Of course. Not all injustice has remedy. And that sucks. But that is life.
How does anyone know that their partner is cheating on them? You've been cheated on. Were you 100% positive they were cheating from the first incident? Probably not, probably not for quite a while, you might even have been shocked to learn it and it caught you blindsided.
You can bluster all you like, doesn't make it right.
And no not all men have to sign an AOP, presumption of paternity exists in most states where the biological mother is married to a man, it is presumed in law that the man is the legal father. Even in liberal California this is the case. The method to avoid this presumption is to file a challenge that you think the child may not be yours, yeah, that's going to go down well post partum mom, Dad filing challenge, I forsee single parent family in that future.
How bad is it to continue a relationship with a child you believed was yours, only to discover it was not? I dunno, I got fixed at 25 not wanting kids, if my partner became pregnant I know it ain't mine. 100% certain guaranteed. However if this led to a bad break up it may be significant, that child may be a constant reminder of your betrayal by someone you care(d) deeply about. It's not my place to judge how someone responds in that situation, any more than it's not my place to judge whether women choose to carry to term or terminate. Further what of the biological father, what of his parental rights, does he have any? He was never informed of any chance he was a father, he was omitted from the entire process. How is that redressed?
That's where it gets kind of weird, legally. Because there's no penalty for ignoring any potential father. Clearly wrongly naming the father causes injury to two people, the person named as the father incorrectly, whether or not he accepts his partners word, and the biological father, who is omitted. While it can be argued that a mother may not intentionally name the wrong father, you cannot unintentionally omit a prospective paternal candidate.
Fraud is defined broadly as intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right. In all cases of wrongfully naming a father, every mother doing that literally by definition commits fraud, because at very least they are intentionally deceiving to deprive a victim of a legal right.
Your still stuck on naming the father. Dosent matter who I point a finger at, that person does not have to sign acknowledgement of paternity. Of course we assume the husband is the father of his wife's child. We also assume the husband does not have illegitimate children with other women. Sometime we are wrong.
So what do you propose we do about a few cheating spouses?
Should any man who slept with a woman have automatic absolute rights over that child without establishing paternity and at the same time a husband have no responsibility for children born from his wife just in case she cheated on him?
As it stands we have laws that try to protect the best interest of the child while also protecting men from fraudulently being forced to pay child support on the word of the mother while also protecting unmarried women's rights to their children.
Sounds like you are not happy with the way the law stands and think you can legislate morality according to your morality.
As far as uniformed fathers again, tough noggies. Have a relationship preferably a legal one and be involved if you want to know if the woman you banged got knocked up and bore a child. If you cared, you would know. Its not that hard. If you CHOOSE to mate indiscriminately that is a risk you take. you guys cant have it both ways.
There's this old saying - "Mama's baby - Daddy's...maybe" which is the reason for the above. If a man doesn't establish paternity of a child he has no rights to the child. The mother gave birth to the child - it is known it is hers. It is not known that a man is the father of a child unless they get tested - not even those born within the confines of marriage. Marriage, however, gives the husband "rights" to the child.
So the privilege you cite is biological. Someone has to be on the hook for taking care of a kid - the person who it came out of is the first choice as responsible party.
I'll also note that you don't have to go to court to establish paternity. If you have had a DNA test and are listed on a child's birth certificate, you have rights to your child as a man where I live. I have an in-law who had a fling with a woman and who hoped the kid wasn't his. He got a DNA test the day the child was born, turned out he was the father. He got his name on the birth certificate before they left the hospital and he has always had joint custody of his child. The child is over a decade old now. So all the sob stories to me are unnecessary. In today's world, most states have a pretty easy process for fathers to establish paternity and FWIW I'd think you'd all want to do so before you invest in a child under false pretenses.
I am a genealogical researcher and so far I've identified 4 people in my family, including 2 direct ancestors whose fathers were not their fathers. Mama's baby, Daddy's....maybe has always been a "thing."
It is also coming to light that families are finding out they have half siblings (daddy had a mistress). I know several people in their 60-80s that have discovered relatives they didn't know they had. So no it is not anything new.
Im still not sure what the OP and other posters want done about it. Still seems to me they want men to have total control over a child that might or might not be theirs and at the same time not be held accountable for a child that might or might not be theirs.
It is also coming to light that families are finding out they have half siblings (daddy had a mistress). I know several people in their 60-80s that have discovered relatives they didn't know they had. So no it is not anything new.
Im still not sure what the OP and other posters want done about it. Still seems to me they want men to have total control over a child that might or might not be theirs and at the same time not be held accountable for a child that might or might not be theirs.
Well it's pretty obvious, they want control but no responsibility. As it ever was.
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