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Unmarried Dads get none of these rights by default. Unmarried Dads get zero parental rights by default.
As soon as paternity is established, he does. I have given you several examples. Choosing to be daft and ignore them does not make them non-existent.
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Originally Posted by dysgenic
Do you really think that the current system works for every situation and catches every loophole? Of course it doesn't. So really, your entire point is irrelevant.
Current system is fairly simple.
1. Establish paternity
2. Mediate terms of custody, visitation, child support, extraneous costs like healthcare
3. Continue to remain in amicable contact with the other parent
It's not difficult. It's not hard. And it allows each family to work out what is best for the child.
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Originally Posted by dysgenic
Again, you are trying to complicate the simple. As a default, 50/50 custody. If there are disputes about school districts or anything else they can be reconciled in court (same as it is right now).
We have already established because the baby actually comes out of the mother she is 100% the child's mother and by default the better alternative. ?
We have absolutely NOT established this. I understand; you hold the biased, discriminatory, sexist position that women are better than men; I get that. But that is your opinion, it is not a point of fact. Furthermore you present the argument as a false dichotomy; either Mom gets full parenting and custody rights (with Dad getting 0 parenting rights), or Dad gets full custody and parenting rights and Mom gets 0 parenting rights. This is an inaccurate representation, this is not an either/or argument.
Now, dad. Dad infers paternity. At the point of birth there is no proof any particular man is the biological father therefore he is not yet dad (cant get paternity test until birth).
Actually we've already established that in cases where Dad is not in dispute; or even in cases where unmarried Dad has DNA test in hand, unmarried Dad still gets 0 parenting rights by default. In other words identity of Dad has nothing to do with this.
Once paternity is established dad gets parental rights.
No, he doesn't. Unmarried Dad still has 0 parenting rights by default until a court orders otherwise.
You have yet to present an argument as to why he should have legal custodial rights without having those defined by court. Any time there is a challenge to custody matters it goes before the court or mediation. You claimed earlier if there was conflicts in parenting plans it would be worked out by the court. Parenting plans between divorced couples are worked out through the court, why wouldn't they be with unmarried parents
Dad should have parenting rights for the same reason that Mom should have parenting rights, because he is the child's parent. I would have thought that would be obvious. Disputes in parenting plans will certainly be worked out by the court, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. We are discussing the fact that unmarried Moms get full parenting and custody rights to their children by default, while unmarried Dads get 0 parenting rights by default.
You have long since tacitly agreed a dad on the birth certificate in fact has parental rights. In fact you then attempted to limit parental rights to custody.
As soon as paternity is established, he does. I have given you several examples. Choosing to be daft and ignore them does not make them non-existent.
Current system is fairly simple.
1. Establish paternity
2. Mediate terms of custody, visitation, child support, extraneous costs like healthcare
3. Continue to remain in amicable contact with the other parent
It's not difficult. It's not hard. And it allows each family to work out what is best for the child.
Whelp. Proof's in the pudding.
You don't even know what 50/50 custody means.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; maybe you are just misinformed. Because what you are trying to portray here is so wildly inaccurate that the way things work in real life is pretty much the opposite of what you are selling. Do you have any idea what the standard amount of parenting time that most courts in the USA actually order for infants of unmarried Dads? It usually starts at a couple of hours/week only to graduate to every other weekend. In other words, what you are selling as 'rights' is really just effectively being barred from a child's life- forever. And you say this 'allows' each family to work out what is best for the child? That statement is completely out of touch with reality. Unless, of course, you also support the biased, discriminatory, and sexist position that Moms are better than Dads and women are better than men.
You have long since tacitly agreed a dad on the birth certificate in fact has parental rights. In fact you then attempted to limit parental rights to custody.
So you are actually arguing with yourself.
I agreed to no such thing. In fact, by default unmarried Dads have zero parental rights by default...even if they are on the birth certificate.
I agreed to no such thing. In fact, by default unmarried Dads have zero parental rights by default...even if they are on the birth certificate.
Whack whack whack.
Go read your earlier post where you wanted to change parental rights to custody only. A BC Dad can prevent any number of things passively including moving out of state, enrolling in school, gaining welfare benefits and medical procedures. And mom has to go to court to override.
We have absolutely NOT established this. I understand; you hold the biased, discriminatory, sexist position that women are better than men; I get that. But that is your opinion, it is not a point of fact. Furthermore you present the argument as a false dichotomy; either Mom gets full parenting and custody rights (with Dad getting 0 parenting rights), or Dad gets full custody and parenting rights and Mom gets 0 parenting rights. This is an inaccurate representation, this is not an either/or argument.
Are you now trying to say the mother does not gestate and birth the child and it is not 100% the child coming out of her is hers (with the exception of surrogates). I believe that is pretty much established. Having one 100% positive parent that can provide nourishment for the baby from her body, that has already bonded with the fetus growing inside her is the default choice. There is no argument against it.
No where was it inferred what my beliefs are. And no where did I say anything about either or custody. Just because you keep saying it doesnt make it true.
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Actually we've already established that in cases where Dad is not in dispute; or even in cases where unmarried Dad has DNA test in hand, unmarried Dad still gets 0 parenting rights by default. In other words identity of Dad has nothing to do with this.
No we haven't. The man cant have DNA test in hand at birth. DNA testing must be done post birth therefore paternity can not be established before the child is born. As soon as DNA testing shows he is the father he has parenting rights. So yes according to law paternity and maternity have everything to do with child custody.
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No, he doesn't. Unmarried Dad still has 0 parenting rights by default until a court orders otherwise.
Honey, look it up. Please. Once paternity is established the father has parenting rights. Of course the terms of those rights are established by the court in best interest of the child. The same as it is in divorce cases. If there is a challenge neither the mother nor the father have any guaranteed rights to do as they please with their biological child.
You have yet to present an argument as to why he should have legal custodial rights without having those defined by court. Any time there is a challenge to custody matters it goes before the court or mediation. You claimed earlier if there was conflicts in parenting plans it would be worked out by the court. Parenting plans between divorced couples are worked out through the court, why wouldn't they be with unmarried parents
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Dad should have parenting rights for the same reason that Mom should have parenting rights, because he is the child's parent.
Yes, once paternity is established, he does. This doesn't not go to the argument. We agree on that.
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I would have thought that would be obvious.
It is. Still This doesn't not go to the argument. We agree on that.
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Disputes in parenting plans will certainly be worked out by the court, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Yes they are and it is exactly what we are talking about. In all disputed cases parenting plans are worked out in court.
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We are discussing the fact that unmarried Moms get full parenting and custody rights to their children by default, while unmarried Dads get 0 parenting rights by default.
Yes, they are the default parent until the other parent is established by paternity testing. Unmarried man is not the dad until it is proven by paternity testing. At which point he has legal parental rights.
What if a man shows up at the hospital claiming to be the father but he is not?
What if a woman names a man as the father but he is not?
In both cases a paternity test is required. At the very least a signed birth certificate filed with the state.
Where is your argument?
I really dont see where this is an issue. In most situations the unmarried parents have worked out some form of parenting/custody/support before the birth of the child. Very seldom does it go that the mother doesn't name the father on the BC and DNA testing and court hearings are required.
Not true. Mothers of children born out of wedlock have custody, Dads do not have any parenting rights.
They have the right to put a glove on it if they are going to have intercourse with similarly unmarried women. I know one guy who has 9 kids, 4 of them when he was married, and the next 5 with whoever was his current squeeze after he divorced. Can't say the mothers were any smarter about BC than he was, but at least they had the benefit of his not being a deadbeat, either with the child support or being there as a father.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; maybe you are just misinformed. Because what you are trying to portray here is so wildly inaccurate that the way things work in real life is pretty much the opposite of what you are selling. Do you have any idea what the standard amount of parenting time that most courts in the USA actually order for infants of unmarried Dads? It usually starts at a couple of hours/week only to graduate to every other weekend. In other words, what you are selling as 'rights' is really just effectively being barred from a child's life- forever. And you say this 'allows' each family to work out what is best for the child? That statement is completely out of touch with reality. Unless, of course, you also support the biased, discriminatory, and sexist position that Moms are better than Dads and women are better than men.
Show me a case where an unmarried father asked for full time parental care of an infant.
Show me a case where a married father asked for full time parental care of an infant.
Your creating a problem where none exist.
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