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Well, in Numbers given the statistics I had reported it seems of the 9185 homicides committed with ill intent in the line of criminal enterprise or killings, I went further digging.
248 of those deaths were from either AR or AK platform rifles.
Would it be fair to say the call for bans is one driven by emotion be it fear or anger? Not logic and fact?
248 deaths via AR AK platforms vs the 10k dead at the hands of a drunk driver?
248 deaths via AR and AK platforms vs the 35k fatalities in car accidents?
248 deaths via AR/AK platforms vs 39k and Change reported biological weapons carrying HIV/AIDS
Obesity is a bigger threat to everyone. Drinking and driving is a bigger threat.
Numbers matter, and I'm a numbers guy, so I completely understand where you are coming from, but for the love of guns and powder, you really need to stop trying to characterize all gun control considerations as emotionally driven. Of course there is emotion involved. Emotion is what drives the development of most our laws; for better ways of life, better business practice, safety, fire prevention. Emotion drives our wants and actions.
That said, even a numbers guy has to recognize that theoretically at least, banning something means the goal is to rid us of that item being banned. If there were no weapons out there able to help terrorists commit acts of terrorism that kill so many so quickly, the ban of those types of weapons would serve to better prevent such acts of terrorism.
That's not an emotional argument, but of course it is an argument very difficult to argue from a pragmatic or realistic standpoint, because such a ban can hardly succeed when so many such weapons are already out there, not to mention the other forms of terrorism always available to terrorists...
My biggest struggle -- call it emotional if you like -- is that I was raised and made a career much reliant on not giving up even in the face of difficult challenges and obstacles. I've dealt with people who throw their hands up in the air in the face of such challenges all my life. They are common and commonly part of the problem, but I am also grounded in reality, so when a problem like terrorism persists and nothing really seems possible to stop it, frustration surely does begin to set in. That's better than complacency I suspect, but who knows...
Example, in one State there are almost no laws outside of Federal. Just cross a State line and you could be in felony status just by having the firearm or ammo in your possession.
Another, you can be driving down the interstate and have status of illegal, legal, illegal, legal just by crossing city limits!
You can be arrested for possession or you can simply have things confiscated depending on your zip code. It's nuts!
How many times have gun owners said, "I feel like I have to be an attorney to understand all these gun laws".
You want to know why we know so much about firearms? Because if we didn't, we'd likely be in jail thanks to the layering of stupid gun laws from the State on down. We are literally being forced to know everything about all firearms.
Oh I really have to doubt your theory here, at least as it applies to all the comments I read in which the utmost relish about all things guns is all too obvious...
"Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
To each his own of course. I just don't share that level of interest or inclination. That's altogether understandable. We're all different that way of course. Much like I am a sports fan, I'm just not as interested in all things sports related, statistics, like some sports "nuts."
I am more interested in what happened in Vegas and/or what may be the next terrorist choice venue, like at a sporting arena. I'm less confident any gun control measure can really work, but I'm quite sure the level of security checks and efforts along those lines are going to forever become more commonplace (also as commented before).
All that said, if in addition to my moderate interest in guns, I were forced to bone up on all you say is necessary because of all the "stupid gun laws," I'd probably watch more sports instead. Save some money in the process too. I prefer playing basketball. Shooting hoops is about all the shooting I do anymore...
But modern sporting rifles are a significant threat to public health and safety...
And especially rifles that the govt doesn't call "sporting", even though they fire the same bullet at the same speed and often poorer accuracy, but have scary-looking (to gun-rights-haters) features like pistol grips or flash hiders.
Don't forget, the estimate of deaths from medical malpractice is 170,000 to 250,000 per year.
One thing for certain no one can forget in a gun thread is how to use irrelevant statistics to make a point just as irrelevant...
For people who have suffered from medical malpractice, and/or if this thread were about medical malpractice, these statistics would be considered relevant.
For the people who lost friends and family in Vegas (I have friends who were at that concert and family who live in Vegas), now burying the dead, supporting those wounded and/or grieving, medical malpractice statistics are not relevant. Might even be considered in bad taste by some...
Numbers matter, and I'm a numbers guy, so I completely understand where you are coming from, but for the love of guns and powder, you really need to stop trying to characterize all gun control considerations as emotionally driven. Of course there is emotion involved. Emotion is what drives the development of most our laws; for better ways of life, better business practice, safety, fire prevention. Emotion drives our wants and actions.
That said, even a numbers guy has to recognize that theoretically at least, banning something means the goal is to rid us of that item being banned. If there were no weapons out there able to help terrorists commit acts of terrorism that kill so many so quickly, the ban of those types of weapons would serve to better prevent such acts of terrorism.
That's not an emotional argument, but of course it is an argument very difficult to argue from a pragmatic or realistic standpoint, because such a ban can hardly succeed when so many such weapons are already out there, not to mention the other forms of terrorism always available to terrorists...
My biggest struggle -- call it emotional if you like -- is that I was raised and made a career much reliant on not giving up even in the face of difficult challenges and obstacles. I've dealt with people who throw their hands up in the air in the face of such challenges all my life. They are common and commonly part of the problem, but I am also grounded in reality, so when a problem like terrorism persists and nothing really seems possible to stop it, frustration surely does begin to set in. That's better than complacency I suspect, but who knows...
Emotion does not drive me one bit. Proof-lose 4 teenage friends the day after graduating highschool to a drunk driver. Go with parents at their request to help identify bodies. What I saw was beyond gruesome. Did I call up my congressmen and demand banning alcohol or private use of automobiles, punishing all in vain of my tragedy? Absolutely not. There were laws on the books to prevent this from happening and yet it still occurred. What more could be done? Make people forfeit 4th amendment rights and demand the auto industry install breathalyzer devices in cars? Okay. Stomp my feet and scream like a 4 year old who lost their toy, demanding action in the name of my four friends? No. I'm a realist. I see things for what they are and tell it like it is. My feelings about it are not relevant. When figures numbers and physical evidence show there is a statistically higher chance of succumbing death or injury at the hands of another, the numbers not lying, I don't let my emotions cloud my judgement nor how I live my life.
Selfish isn't defined by doing what you want for your agenda, selfish is defined by making others do what you want, for your agenda.
Look at the big picture of things.
Emotion is irrelevant and not conducive to legislation nor business.
My business I do not pander or coddle to emotion.
I tell it like it is. Don't like it, ohwell.
If a customer of mine tells me money is short and my profit margin is to decrease significantly to where I'm performing a task at or below minimal wage, I refuse to render goods and services. That's just how it goes. If I had a heart of gold and gave away and sacrificed profit in the name of emotion I'd be out of business now wouldn't I?
My point pertaining to the great debate of firearms and legislation is just that. If we allow ourselves to succumb to emotion driven rants. We allow ourselves to become weak and reliant on a big brother or adult in the room in vain of tragedy under the disguise of security. In nature, you don't see gazelles regulating the size or length of their horns. In nature you do not see bees regulating stinger size and venom amount. In nature you do not see dogs regulating jowl strength and teeth capacity...
I again turn to the words of Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
There is an absolute truth to it, at what point do you honestly stop sacrificing free thought and free decisions to have Uncle Sam do it for you, or rely on a badge holding adult in the room to handle your problems for you, when seconds matter, help can't be minutes away.
It isn't about gun control, or public safety. It's about people control. Look at the big picture of it. Celebrities and politicians alike rallying against the gun, and those hypocrites are surrounded by paid guards armed with the implements they seek to ban and regulate, further more living in gated communities sheltered from the real world. Elitists in every word of the sense. What's good for thee is not good enough for me. That has been my argument since I had been old enough to vote. Enough with a lord vs serf class. Cut the government's regulations and keep them back, downsize the bureaucracies and cut back the wasteful spending, and stop going after the firearm at every turn of tragedy.
To call for bans to fit an emotionally driven agenda is childish at best.
There are far more significant threats to public health and safety.
The notion of disarming or limiting access to defense in the name of emotional knee jerk responses is absolutely dangerous.
Look again at the big picture of things, who stands to profit if firearms were banned, limited, restricted?
The companies who make x-ray and body scanners.
The companies who provide security staff.
The politicians who can be bought to push legislation.
Look at the bigger picture of things. Swallow your emotions and see things for what they are. Question them by all means if you don't understand them, but don't hop aboard bandwagon pushing for stricter governance. That wasn't what this nation was founded upon. I myself in the 30 years I've been alive, can not find one thing positive the government has done. At all. Especially in NY state. They'll find ways to create higher taxes.
Is it too much to ask for, to be able to live and let live, or does everyone everywhere need to forfeit rights and access to something that you and others like you do not like, out of fear or out of anger?
Fair that gun owners don't know all things about all guns. Not sure anyone really can, but to read the comments from gun enthusiasts that go on about all this gun detail down to the patina, you certainly get the feeling that all too many take what they DO know about guns a bit too seriously, borderline obsessive more like the better way to put it.
As noted before as well, if these "gun experts" spent less time "splitting hairs" and more time understanding the simple concept of reducing the rate of kills with the one pull of a trigger, we'd waste far less time playing the who knows what sort of gun kills at the best rate game.
You spew the same sort of nonsense when you claim I IGNORE EVERYTHING. I get awfully tired arguing these mind-numbing straw man arguments all about wanting to discredit alternative thought rather than engage in an intelligent way.
Ultimately, and also as I have made clear many times, gun violence is a "genie out of the bottle" in America, and there's just no putting her back. I am NOT FOR GUN CONTROL. I am, however, always willing to entertain what measures can possibly help prevent the likes of the Vegas massacre, despite all the noise gun nuts want to ramp up to drown out any reasonable adult conversation about that...
I may be a "gun nut" but you are a God damn liar! And that's being kind. Of course you're for gun control and obviously IGNORE EVERYTHING that doesn't support your positions. You have a condescending attitude towards those that disagree with you. You call people "gun nuts" but then expect to have a reasonable adult conversation with those of whom you detest? Yeah, reasonable as long as they agree with your positions.
I'll bet that gun owners or "gun nuts" as you call them know a hell of a lot more about guns, gun laws and the 2nd Amendment than you could every imagine. After all it's us that has something to lose. As long as it's not your ox that's being gored you're okay with it. Of course we're gonna' fight back and fight back hard with facts instead of emotional hysteria.
Do you every even stop to consider that many people on this board get awfully tired of hearing your mind numbing straw man arguments too? You certainly are having no problem trying to discredit alternative thought rather than engage in an intelligent way. It's a two way street my friend and when you engage in name calling with a condescending attitude don't be too surprised when you get treated in kind.
One thing for certain no one can forget in a gun thread is how to use irrelevant statistics to make a point just as irrelevant...
For people who have suffered from medical malpractice, and/or if this thread were about medical malpractice, these statistics would be considered relevant.
For the people who lost friends and family in Vegas (I have friends who were at that concert and family who live in Vegas), now burying the dead, supporting those wounded and/or grieving, medical malpractice statistics are not relevant. Might even be considered in bad taste by some...
Using an incident that is a statistical outlier in order to push for legal regulations of an item which is used in a scant minority of crimes could also be considered in bad taste...
I may be a "gun nut" but you are a God damn liar! And that's being kind. Of course you're for gun control and obviously IGNORE EVERYTHING that doesn't support your positions. You have a condescending attitude towards those that disagree with you. You call people "gun nuts" but then expect to have a reasonable adult conversation with those of whom you detest? Yeah, reasonable as long as they agree with your positions.
I'll bet that gun owners or "gun nuts" as you call them know a hell of a lot more about guns, gun laws and the 2nd Amendment than you could every imagine. After all it's us that has something to lose. As long as it's not your ox that's being gored you're okay with it. Of course we're gonna' fight back and fight back hard with facts instead of emotional hysteria.
Do you every even stop to consider that many people on this board get awfully tired of hearing your mind numbing straw man arguments too? You certainly are having no problem trying to discredit alternative thought rather than engage in an intelligent way. It's a two way street my friend and when you engage in name calling with a condescending attitude don't be too surprised when you get treated in kind.
I welcome people to debate and argument that share his view.
I love dismantling the narrative and proving it false time and time again.
Tired of it? Pfft.
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