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For what it is worth, I'm not necesarilly against tolls. I see the "fairness" in them, just as riders of public transit vehicles pay some fee to ride them.
I'm all for fairness as well, what I would propose is we wipe the slate clean and impose a per mile tax based on the weight of the vehicle so the costs directly associated with driving are applied to the user. Any of the nickle and dime fees like registration fees for example will be removed except to cover expenses. We'll get rid of the mass transit fund and stop funneling money to those public transportation projects so the riders there can fairly pay for their own transportation. While we are at we will lift the fuel tax exemptions on public buses and make them pay the fuel tax as well.
This per mile tax will be applied to the trucking industry and since wer are now basing it on the weight of the vehicle it would necessarily cause a fairly large increase in what they pay. This will do two things, it will force more long haul freight onto the rails where it belongs thus reducing the damage to the roads. The remaining taxes being paid by them will be distributed to every consumer including those those that do not drive. In the long run I will pay far less and have far better roads to drive on.
I'm all for fairness as well, what I would propose is we wipe the slate clean and impose a per mile tax based on the weight of the vehicle so the costs directly associated with driving are applied to the user. Any of the nickle and ime taxes like registration fees for example will be removed except to cover expenses. We'll get rid of the mass transit fund and stop funneling money to those public transportation projects so the riders there can fairly pay for their own transportation. While we are at we will lift the fuel tax exemptions on public buses and make them pay the fuel tax as well.
This per mile tax will be applied to the trucking industry and since wer are now basing it on the weight of the vehicle it would necessarily cause a fairly large increase in what they pay. This will do two things, it will force more long haul freight onto the rails where it belongs thus reducing the damage to the roads. The remaining taxes being paid by them will be distributed to every consumer including those those that do not drive. In the long run I will pay far less and have far better roads to drive on.
How is that for fairness?
I'd be open to most of what you write.
I envision driving and riding public transit would become so expensive that most people couldn't afford either anymore, though. Even though we're paying for those things now in other ways (indirectly through a variety of taxes and fees) - when people see the true costs of their "ways", they might think and act differently.
I envision driving and riding public transit would become so expensive
Here is the revenue directly and indirectly generated by my driving:
Fuel taxes.(part of which goes to mass transit)
Sales tax on the vehicle, if the car is bought and sold three time it can easily exceed the fuel tax.
Registration fee, two vehicles in my case. One of which might go 1000 miles a year.
Title transfer fees when I buy or sell a vehicle.
Drivers license fee.
If I park in Philly or get my car towed half the fee is equally split between the City and the School District.
Then there is $100 in fees that go to sll kinds of things attached to the $25 fine for driving 5MPH over the speed limit
Last but not lest there is the who knows how many 100's billions of dollars generated by car manufacturers, oil companies, garages, parts stores and all their employees.
In the menatime someone riding Amtrak is paying a fare that does not cover costs and buying a hamburger for $9 that cost Amtrak $16 to make.
In case people missed it; there has always been a restriction for non-HOV drivers on I-66 during the rush hours. With the toll in place, now non-HOV drivers have the option of paying a toll and taking I-66, whereas before if they got caught, it would have been a fine. If they do not want to pay the toll, then they commute as they always have.
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Originally Posted by skeddy
Northern Virginia is a mecca for liberals. Nice deal you struck there Governor. Everybody long suffered with the congestion and construction of these toll lanes. Now nobody can afford to ride on them. lmao $40 for a 15 minute drive ...lol
N. VA. has a different type of libs/Dems, not your California type for sure. As for the tolls, see my post above. Also, there was no construction other than placement of the tolls which did not impede traffic, so not sure what construction you are referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger
Crack down hard on crime in the inner cities and move the idiots out and people will move closer to work.
DC has been doing this, gentrification of course pushing the issue, but some people are complaining about it, including some blacks who "want to keep DC black." The areas around DC have exploded in development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220
I think with the transponder toll lanes with the switchable transponder (for carpool or single rider), they photo enforce them, so cheaters get a photo ticket in the mail
There is no way to photo enforce how many people are in the car. However, the way they are enforcing it is that there is a light that flashes on the toll letting the cop ahead know you have the HOV "on" so they can physically check as you drive by, basically, the same way they have always enforced the HOV restriction.
Here is the revenue directly and indirectly generated by my driving:
Fuel taxes.(part of which goes to mass transit)
Sales tax on the vehicle, if the car is bought and sold three time it can easily exceed the fuel tax.
Registration fee, two vehicles in my case. One of which might go 1000 miles a year.
Title transfer fees when I buy or sell a vehicle.
Drivers license fee.
If I park in Philly or get my car towed half the fee is equally split between the City and the School District.
Then there is $100 in fees that go to sll kinds of things attached to the $25 fine for driving 5MPH over the speed limit
Last but not lest there is the who knows how many 100's billions of dollars generated by car manufacturers, oil companies, garages, parts stores and all their employees.
In the menatime someone riding Amtrak is paying a fare that does not cover costs and buying a hamburger for $9 that cost Amtrak $16 to make.
That hamburger is a pretty good deal, since your subsidizing less than half of it. With driving, gas taxes and all the vehicle fees pay for less than half of the annual cost of building and maintaining roads. The rest of it comes from general fund revenues and bonds (Drivers, but also bicyclists, transit riders, and pedestrians). And as for the excuse that fuel taxes goes to mass transit, the average amount going to transit throughout the United States is around 10% (16% of the federal tax and lower for most states, including several states where no state gas tax goes towards transit). Even if no money went to transit, drivers would still cover only about half the cost, and traffic would be even worse. Double everything you pay, and you'd probably be paying your fair share. That's why without tolls or massive hikes in taxes/fees, there aren't going to be a lot of new lanes added going forward, despite increasing numbers of cars on the road.
See the conservative tax foundation for how much of roads are covered by drivers in each state:
This one is from a more liberal group and is averaged across all states, but the numbers are identical. The red line is funding not from drivers fees (tolls, gas tax, registration/licensing/inspection fees, etc), and now equals drivers fees:
As is usually the case, Americans feel they shouldn't have to pay the high costs for the things they want/need (transportation infrastructure, housing, health care, military, education, etc).
That hamburger is a pretty good deal, since your subsidizing less than half of it. With driving, gas taxes and all the vehicle fees pay for less than half of the annual cost of building and maintaining roads. The rest of it comes from general fund revenues and bonds (Drivers, but also bicyclists, transit riders, and pedestrians). And as for the excuse that fuel taxes goes to mass transit, the average amount going to transit throughout the United States is around 10% (16% of the federal tax and lower for most states, including several states where no state gas tax goes towards transit). Even if no money went to transit, drivers would still cover only about half the cost, and traffic would be even worse. Double everything you pay, and you'd probably be paying your fair share. That's why without tolls or massive hikes in taxes/fees, there aren't going to be a lot of new lanes added going forward, despite increasing numbers of cars on the road.
See the conservative tax foundation for how much of roads are covered by drivers in each state:
This one is from a more liberal group and is averaged across all states, but the numbers are identical. The red line is funding not from drivers fees (tolls, gas tax, registration/licensing/inspection fees, etc), and now equals drivers fees:
As is usually the case, Americans feel they shouldn't have to pay the high costs for the things they want/need (transportation infrastructure, housing, health care, military, education, etc).
Thanks for digging that up - driving does not "pay for itself", either.
That hamburger is a pretty good deal, since your subsidizing less than half of it. With driving, gas taxes and all the vehicle fees pay for less than half of the annual cost of building and maintaining roads.
Firstly this is something very difficult to nail down because states fund their roads differently. NJ for example had the lowest gas taxes in the country for decades but they used a lot of money from the general fund to make up for it.
Here in PA when I buy fuel, for both the federal and state tax part of that goes to mass transit. Have you accounted for that?
Have you accounted for the sales tax I and everyone else pay on vehicles?
Have you accounted for the exorbitant parking fees in Philadelphia where half it is equally divided between the school district and city for non road related items?
Of course you haven't, when you have accounted for it get back to me and I'll give you another list to account for. To suggest that revenue that can be directly attributed to me driving does not cover the cost of roads is absurd. It's a giant cash cow that funds a lot of things well beyond building roads and maintaining them.
Quote:
That's why without tolls or massive hikes in taxes/fees, there aren't going to be a lot of new lanes added going forward, despite increasing numbers of cars on the road.
If the highway trust fund wasn't being robbed over the last 2 decades plus to help pay for mass transit we'd either have surplus, better highways or both. In my case that also applies to the state level as well.
Blame it on Uber who to my knowledge invented surge pricing. If they did not invent the concept, they made it common accepted practice. Anecdotal, but I have personally seen pricing for the same point to point ride change in just a couple of minutes time.
"Virginia Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne acknowledged Tuesday that the tolls are higher than many anticipated, but he said that there is nothing unfair about the new system, that it is working as intended."
Firstly this is something very difficult to nail down because states fund their roads differently. NJ for example had the lowest gas taxes in the country for decades but they used a lot of money from the general fund to make up for it.
Here in PA when I buy fuel, for both the federal and state tax part of that goes to mass transit. Have you accounted for that?
If you would have read my post, I comment on it literally 2 sentences after you cut the quote off. 16% of the federal gas tax goes to transit. 0% of the Pennsylvania gas tax goes to transit. so, you pay a little less than $0.03/gallon to subsidize transit. Add that to roads funds instead, it is a drop in the bucket and you are paying maybe 48% of the costs of construction and maintennance, instead of 44%. One thing the PA does that is unique is they fund part of their highway patrol out of the gas tax, as they consider policing highways a highway associated cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
Have you accounted for the sales tax I and everyone else pay on vehicles?
Sure, unless you are buying a new Mercedes every couple years, it still doesn't cover costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
Have accounted for the exorbitant parking fees in Philadelphia where half it is equally divided between the school district and city for non road related items?
No, where you choose to park is your business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
Of course you haven't, when you have accounted for it get back to me and I'll give you another list to account for. To suggest that revenue that can be directly attributed to me driving does not cover the cost of roads is absurd. It's a giant cash cow that funds a lot of things well beyond building roads and maintaining them.
It doesn't cover it, and that is a numerical fact. You can add all kinds things like how much you tip your valet, and it's still not going to cover costs. Conservative and liberal economists agree on this. Just because thecoalman wants to believe it does, doesn't make it so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
If the highway trust fund wasn't being robbed over the last 2 decades plus to help pay for mass transit we'd either have surplus, better highways or both. In my case that also applies to the state level as well.
It wouldn't matter if the 16% going to transit were removed, the highway trust fund would be just as broke because the gas tax isn't tied to inflation and hasn't been raised in a quarter of a century. It has lost two thirds of its value over that time and, surprise, the trust fund isn't doing well.
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