Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm not one to simply accept your presumptions, declarations of fact and/or premise like it seems you assume everyone will, and that you don't provide any reference site doesn't help you any, but starting with the "greatest point" that got Trump elected, according to whom? By what measure is this about border security the "greatest point?"
According to PEW research: Economy, Terrorism, Foreign Policy, Health Care, Gun Policy...
I don’t really think polls are as meaningful as you apparently do. The pew research group also reports that among the Hispanic community, 32% self identify as conservatives, 26% moderates, and 28% liberals. Now if you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale!
Fact is, Polls and statistics are so easily manipulated, they have no meaningful value these days. If you set about a poll to determine Trump’s popularity, and conducted that poll outside a Trump rally .... then performed the same poll at the democrat convention .... do you think the results would be similar, or wildly skewed?
I do agree however, that the economy was a huge issue among Trump supporters. Perhaps equal to, or even greater than the “wall”, so in that I’m fine with standing corrected. But to dismiss the wall as an issue to which the vast majority oppose is a load of bovine excrement.
Let me add something here .... according to the broader poll by pew regarding all issues, we’d better hope it’s inaccurate, else we as a nation are dominated by idiots. Topic after topic, Clinton came out ahead, but alarmingly, regarding immigration policy, she also beat Trump. Contrast that with the expert analysis explaining the surprising Trump victory, it was precisely the economy and immigration policy that spearheaded Trumps victory.
And, as an aside note, which should bring into serious question Pew’s results, Trump even lost to Clinton on gun policy. What? Hillary the gun grabber Clinton beat Trump on guns? Pew indeed. Methinks Pew polls smell fishy
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 01-23-2018 at 12:18 PM..
Moochell started that hating on America back in 2008.
No, that was then she "began to have pride" in this country. To be exact she said, "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change" and " for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback." See David Clarke says Michelle Obama said she was proud of U.S.only after Barack Obama became president.
I don’t believe the term “fascism” is the appropriate label in this case. I would prefer the term “authoritarianism” as the end product of big government, and the best definition of modern day liberal progressivism. This includes fascism, communism, socialism, dictatorship, oligarchy, monarchy.... all similar but distinct forms of authoritarianism.
Islam, for example, has been misrepresented as a “religion” when in reality, it is an authoritarian construct, to wit religion is the central theme, and supposed ultimate authority. Self appointed despots posing as religious leaders claiming to be the appointees of God, rule in ruthless authoritarian manner, not much different than communist dictators, or fascist regimes.
In today’s modern definitions, things have become so distorted as to have no common meaning. For example, left wingers will insist that fascism is a right wing construct, which is patently absurd. By the same measure, Islamic extremists are often labeled “religious ultra conservatives” leading many to view conservatism as a form of authoritarianism. This explains why liberals tend to scoff at the suggestion that they are authoritarians, which is like a striped horse insisting they are not Zebras.
The very best, and simplist way to define the political spectrum consists of a straight line .....
Beginning on the far right, no government authority equals anarchy. As you move left, government grows larger, gaining more authority over the citizenry. On the line above labeled “cons” represents limited constitutional government. Further left, you have Progressive liberalism which espouses far more government control and authority, with the very far left being total government control, or complete authoritarian rule. All of the “isms”, communism, fascism, socialism, all reside on the left, and represent progressive levels of authoritarianism. By contrast, true “conservatism” embraces limited government authority, such as is defined in the US constitution.
So, for those who are going to indentify as a leftist, or a liberal progressive, then at least understand what you are, and what philosophy you actually promote.
I believe that most rational people ... given an accurate picture, would naturally lean toward self determination as opposed to being ruled over by self anointed authoritarians. This explains why we on the right consider progressive liberalism to be a form of mental illness.
Or..., I could correct all this you lay out as gospel, but would I be wasting still more time? Would anything I point out to the contrary make a difference? Hard to think so at this point...
Might simply point out that any form of government can be considered authoritarian regardless of size and/or liberal or conservative leaning, for starters. Also when we begin to describe government as either good or bad, authoritarian or not, simply as a function of size, left or right, we're clearly no longer talking intelligently about any of these terms. One could argue as I would for example, that it is far better to have a strongly democratic and representative large government over a smaller oppressive authoritarian government "any day of the week!"
"Devil is in the details" and without them we're doing the devil's work of misrepresenting the truth of these matters and only making things worse by promoting a poor understanding about all this and what really makes the difference at the end of the day when it comes to what sort of government and/or society we want, that is best for the people, all the people all considered.
Same with this about Islam. Anyone could easily argue that just about every major religion is "authoritarian." Take the history of Christianity, for example, through the ages when it was even as powerful as government in some countries at some times, still today in some places, and who are we kidding by suggesting one religion is much different than the other in these regards (except the notable exception of Buddhism). May be that Christianity is now evolved a bit differently than Islam and this too is a function of what part of the world we might focus, but they are all authoritarian in one way or another, often measured in strength by the number of their followers, now about 2.1 billion Christians and 1.3 billion Muslims strong. Why do they follow?
Here too, make any broad based generalizations about why people do what they do, believe what they will, and no doubt your bias will be more telling than what is actually the truth behind these dynamics.
Good book about some of these dynamics that I recommend along the way to people who might be interested is called "Dreams and Shadows: The Future of the Middle East" by Robin Wright. More truthful, I think, in any case.
I don’t really think polls are as meaningful as you apparently do. The pew research group also reports that among the Hispanic community, 32% self identify as conservatives, 26% moderates, and 28% liberals. Now if you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale!
Fact is, Polls and statistics are so easily manipulated, they have no meaningful value these days. If you set about a poll to determine Trump’s popularity, and conducted that poll outside a Trump rally .... then performed the same poll at the democrat convention .... do you think the results would be similar, or wildly skewed?
I do agree however, that the economy was a huge issue among Trump supporters. Perhaps equal to, or even greater than the “wall”, so in that I’m fine with standing corrected. But to dismiss the wall as an issue to which the vast majority oppose is a load of bovine excrement.
Let me add something here .... according to the broader poll by pew regarding all issues, we’d better hope it’s inaccurate, else we as a nation are dominated by idiots. Topic after topic, Clinton came out ahead, but alarmingly, regarding immigration policy, she also beat Trump. Contrast that with the expert analysis explaining the surprising Trump victory, it was precisely the economy and immigration policy that spearheaded Trumps victory.
And, as an aside note, which should bring into serious question Pew’s results, Trump even lost to Clinton on gun policy. What? Hillary the gun grabber Clinton beat Trump on guns? Pew indeed. Methinks Pew polls smell fishy
You are yet another conservative who dismisses polls in the same way, apparently not really understanding what polls are and/or are not...
They are "meaningful" as a matter of reference, statistically significant to the point of a "level of confidence" that professional polls always take into account and make known. Again with the same sort of rationale and level of confidence that companies will do similar research, polls, focus groups, to determine who will want their product and why, buy their product and why. Money is not spent on those sorts of efforts for nothing!
Polls provide an idea of what may be more truthful than what people claiming they know better from the vantage point of their living room sofa in any case. Not 100 percent entirely reliable but certainly what to consider when deciding what to suggest is actually the truth about what people are thinking, doing, based on whatever statistically reliable information can tell us to a point. At a minimum, formal polls help to question if not refute that which you want to suggest is "fact" when really it seems to be just your opinion, your notions based on what you choose to believe.
Also of course, no one poll should be considered at the expense of all others. If anyone wants to get a better "picture" of what is going on, you've got to consider all of them in the aggregate, best we can. Again what I call "triangulating for the truth." For example, the polls -- in the aggregate -- certainly show that Trump has a very poor approval rating as POTUS in his first year, the worst. YOU may believe he's not the worst, but the polls certainly suggest that most people don't agree with you. Not just one but pretty much every professional poll that bothers to measure that public sentiment in a professional manner (with all due respect to the learned opinions of Trump supporters to the contrary).
For example what you point out about Hispanics. Again you don't offer any supporting link or reference but in the Pew link I provided we read that "Hillary Clinton currently has a 66%-24% advantage over Donald Trump among Hispanic registered voters." Whether Hispanics consider themselves "conservative" can be a function of religion as well, like the buddy I have who is liberal by most counts but registered a Republican because of his religious beliefs that keep him from aligning with liberals about gay rights and pro-choice. Lots of religious folks do the same thing and Hispanics tend to be strong Catholics as a rule.
In fact, also for your information, you might also consider the following which again begs the question..., where are you getting your "ocean front Arizona property" information? Maybe you are also misunderstanding that as well!
"Most Cuban-Americans and Venezuelan-Americans tend to support the Republican Party, while Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans, Salvadoran-Americans, Guateman-Americans, and Dominican-Americans tend to support the Democratic Party. As the latter groups are far more numerous (Mexican Americans alone are 64% of Hispanics), the Democratic Party is considered to be in a far stronger position among Hispanics overall. The U.S. Census indicates that the Hispanic population of the United States is the fastest growing minority group in the country."
The people who hate Trump, hate America. What kind of example do you give to your children and others by hating the elected leader of a country through the established democracy?
You people are ridiculously arrogant and not aware of much at all.
Your going to have to do better then that around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Oh how disturbing it is to read comments like these that you would like to think are limited, but of course we all know there are enough Americans who think like this to be a problem, a serious problem...
Even at a most basic level, having to explain any further is ridiculous. That any more about that need explaining only demonstrates the ignorance of whomever needs the explaining. That sort of ignorance hardly deserves any attention other than from special education professionals.
Why the history lesson? Explained and not all that complicated if paying attention...
Hint: a response to this statement, "because, for a generation, we stood on the sidelines and allowed them to."
Thinking back about what has transpired over the course of a generation as a result of who doing what, on the field and on the sidelines. Right. Never mind.
Social changes, good and bad, are what we all hope will prove best for all concerned over the long run all considered, not just the bad like conservatives like to cherry pick in order to forever make the case that just about anything government is bad. Now payroll withholding too? Working Americans work 4 months to "pay government" for what?!? Social Security? UI? Federal and state taxes..., FOR WHAT?
The long run, really? Jim Crow laws can trace their origins back to Democrats after the Reconstruction period. They were afraid of black people gaining political power. That's a pretty long run there and certainly flies in the face of this belief that Democrats are the benevolent party of the people. They have caused more harm to our great country and our past Democratic adminstrations were a hotbed of corruption, lies and deceit.
Yes, paying taxes is necessary to fund a government, but we now have a tax system that is so bloated and confusing that most people choose to spend more of their money to hire someone just to file their taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Social security is what? An IOU is not exactly what millions of seniors are cashing to pay their expenses on a monthly basis now that they are older and no longer able to work. No longer valued as workers. Know any? Now divorce rates are thanks to liberals too? Maybe we should make divorce impossible like the good old days when conservative religious right types insisted on that sort of thing? We're going to go backwards and/or do what instead?
I'm glad that I'm working hard to pay for their retired lifestyle. Unfortunately, the future generation won't be paying for my social security. The system will be bankrupt by then. So how is that fair? I donated hundreds of dollars each month to the government and in return they give me a maybe promise that I'll get some of that back in my golden years? I rather keep that money and deposit it myself into something that earns interest. Now that's fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I'm liberal, and I don't "walk on eggshells!" I still enjoy the NFL games just as always, knee or no knees.
Good for you, but that's not the experience for a lot of people. I remember one time that I posted a comment on liberal gay celebrity's facebook post blasting Hiliary and I immediately got over a hundred hateful responses so bad that I quickly deleted my post. Your side is so angry and intolerant and even eats their own. Look what happened to Anzi. His career is ruined over nothing. Your side rarely gives second chances, no matter how apologetic the person is.
and NFL viewership really hit a new low. Gee, I wonder why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
I still enjoy most things about my life as an American despite the conservatives who seem hung up about anything and anyone who doesn't think like they do. Good thing too, because we've mostly moved on toward thinking a bit more maturely than we did a generation ago. Fortunately it seems that each new generation gives us hope that way. I like to think so anyway!
Each new generation has a lower standard of morality and a higher degree of suicide and anger. I fear for the future generations.
The long run, really? Jim Crow laws can trace their origins back to Democrats after the Reconstruction period. They were afraid of black people gaining political power. That's a pretty long run there and certainly flies in the face of this belief that Democrats are the benevolent party of the people. They have caused more harm to our great country and our past Democratic adminstrations were a hotbed of corruption, lies and deceit.
I'm not hung up on the history or rhetoric you seem stuck with...
I'm also critical of the Democrats of days past when it comes to the fight for civil rights in this country, but for that matter I'm not all that proud of how our founding fathers were a bit backwards about all that by today's standards either. What matters to me is what the parties represent today, and today the position of the Democratic party better aligns with my opinions about all that sort of thing far better than the Republican platform does, regardless how these parties have evolved over time, as they both have in more than a few significant ways.
You want to take on the righteous position of declaring who has been guilty of corruption, lies and deceit and who has not? You're not off to a very good start if historical context, objectivity and sound rationale matter any...
Yes, paying taxes is necessary to fund a government, but we now have a tax system that is so bloated and confusing that most people choose to spend more of their money to hire someone just to file their taxes.
Confusing and bloated more or less for some, but agreed there is always room for improvement...
Problem is, whether we understand all that goes into a government supposedly representing the interests of 350 million Americans swimming in an economy some $20 trillion strong, a simple tax code is wishful thinking. A progressive tax code is appropriate if not necessary, and when we get to the specifics about each line item that makes up our tax and spend policies, Americans disagree about much.
So begins where specifics make a difference and your bumper-sticker comments don't...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
