Viewers Discretion Advised! - Film About Quran (fitna discussion) (serial killers, millionaire, abortion)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Lucidus

How do you feel about Muslims using threats against the websites that host the video?

I find it unfortunate, that people respond to propaganda with more propaganda.
Although I can understand it when Muslim find the movie insulting, you can only be insulted when you give those who use insults to provoke you the power to insult you.
I believe that Jesus' turning the other cheek is the right reaction, so communication is still possible.

[ThAdam]

Tricky, were the translations of the passages from the Quran accurate? if the translations are accurate, then the Muslim holy book plainly states that it is acceptable to kill Christians and Jews wherever they are found. If a Muslim person changes religions, then it is acceptable to kill them? sorry, but i don't remember seeing a similar passage in the Bible stating that those that convert to another religion are to be murdered.

There may be millions of peaceful Muslims, but as with everything, the whack-jobs get the press, because right now, the whack-jobs are the group trying to destroy western civilization. They are not attacking us because we are in Iraq, they flew planes in the buildings before we got there, they have attacked us repeatedly over the last 35 years.

When i was in 3rd grade a family from Kuwait moved in across the street. All through school, i was pretty good friends with the boy who was close to my age. My father became pretty good friends with his father. It wasn't until the attack on 9/11 that the true religious beliefs of my friend and his family became obvious. My father tells me that once, just once, my friends' father let his guard down and showed his true vitriolic hatred for Jews.

Muslim teachings harbor substantial amounts of hate for any religion that is not Muslim.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by bentlebee

I'm not saying Jews have no problems with European anti semitism. Are you a Jew?

No, but I know how it is to be a minority who is only judged on his appearance (or on my beliefs).

But the muslims need to wear burka's, etc.

Is this not the same as for orthodox Jews who wear traditional clothes?
I mean the mayor of Amsterdam Cohen (a Jew) defends the custom of not shaking hands of women by many religious Muslim (and also Jews?).
In Cohen's opinion it should be the norm that everyone should shakes hands, but sometimes you must make an exception to still be able to reach those people who normally would not be reached.
Besides only a few 100 people of the 16 million Dutch refuse to shake a woman's hand for religious reasons.

Wilders is speaking out and if you read the Dutch paper and the comments on things happening...Dutch people want to immigrate, they want to leave and knwo freedom of speech will cost you your live now a days even in Holland.

Aren't you being overly dramatic?
In case you don't know I live in Holland and it already is a fact that Wilders' political party has lost 2 seats (if we would have held elections at this moment).

So hate preaching is allowed according to the wannabee president (N)obama!!!!

Isn't this the difference between America and Holland? In Holland we have freedom of speech, but once you purposely insult others and /or preach hate you'll be fined.
The KKK for example would have been forbidden in Holland, even when we have freedom of religion.

Originally Posted by ThAdam

Tricky, were the translations of the passages from the Quran accurate?

They are taken out of context and it is easy to be lost in translations; at the time the Qu'ran was 1st written down you did not have the word 'terrorism' or 'discrimination.'
Besidez, isn't it the same as the OT were it is only right for Jews to kill non-Jews?

They are not attacking us because we are in Iraq, they flew planes in the buildings before we got there, they have attacked us repeatedly over the last 35 years.

They have attacked you because America supports Saudi Arabia and Israel. Both of these nations are the cause of much poverty in the Middle East.

Muslim teachings harbor substantial amounts of hate for any religion that is not Muslim.

But doesn't Israel hate the Palestinians just as much as they hate you?
I wonder if it all had worked out differently if the Jews had just immigrated to the region that is Israel and lived among the Islam, instead of just 'confiscating' Israel and segregating the Jews from the non-Jews?

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Isn't this the difference between America and Holland? In Holland we have freedom of speech, but once you purposely insult others and /or preach hate you'll be fined.

If one is penalized, in any fashion, for "purposely insulting" someone - then, there is no freedom of speech.

[Frank_Carbonni]

Originally Posted by ThAdam

When i was in 3rd grade a family from Kuwait moved in across the street. All through school, i was pretty good friends with the boy who was close to my age. My father became pretty good friends with his father. It wasn't until the attack on 9/11 that the true religious beliefs of my friend and his family became obvious. My father tells me that once, just once, my friends' father let his guard down and showed his true vitriolic hatred for Jews.

Muslim teachings harbor substantial amounts of hate for any religion that is not Muslim.

I went to high school in Australia and one time in science class we were watching a video about genetics and the subject of eugenics came up on the video and it showed stock footage of Nazi experiments. These Lebanese-Australian guys (as in born and raised in Australia) started clapping and nudging each other and saying about how great that was. I was so disgusted, but the silver lining was this Shia Iraqi guy who was sitting with them shot them a dirty look, got up and walked over to another seat. Despite coming from the country a country where anti-Semitism is pretty much curriculum and was possibly an anti-Semite himself, he still was repulsed that someone could take pleasure in the Holocaust.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Greatday

If one is penalized, in any fashion, for "purposely insulting" someone - then, there is no freedom of speech.

Define properly insulting.
Or better yet, explain the difference between properly insulting and propaganda.
Or prove to me that freedom of speech means that you are free to bend the truth.
Or do you believe that it is only the listener's responsibility to know what is truth and what is a lie.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by GreatdayDefine properly insulting.
Or better yet, explain the difference between properly insulting and propaganda.
Or prove to me that freedom of speech means that you are free to bend the truth.
Or do you believe that it is only the listener's responsibility to know what is truth and what is a lie.

You used the word "insulting" - not I

And, it matters not if I insult you - or lie about you.

Freedom of speech says that I have the right to do these things - Oh, you might not like it to be sure - and, if you can PROVE that I "harmed" you, you might have the right to litigate, but, to have the government decide what is "insulting" and what is not - is stifling of speech - not freedom of speech.

Remember "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" -

Freedom: It means being FREE.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Greatday

You used the word "insulting" - not I

Don't worry, you can't insult me if you tried.

And, it matters not if I insult you - or lie about you.

Of course it does.
In America you sue large amounts of money when people insult you or spread lies about you, while in Holland you only get a small fine. So in America people are careful not to insult or spread lies about people ( unles they can afford it) because they are afraid to be sued straight into poverty.

[Frank_Carbonni]

Originally Posted by Greatday

You used the word "insulting" - not I

And, it matters not if I insult you - or lie about you.

Freedom of speech says that I have the right to do these things - Oh, you might not like it to be sure - and, if you can PROVE that I "harmed" you, you might have the right to litigate, but, to have the government decide what is "insulting" and what is not - is stifling of speech - not freedom of speech.

Remember "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" -

Freedom: It means being FREE.

I will use my amazing psychic powers to channel his response:

that doesn't matter because freedom doesn't mean freedom to offend or to kill i suppose it is part of you're bill of rights to shoot people in the face oh wait it is in the bill of rights in america i guess we all know what freedom means to you were more civilized over here and put safety infront of "freedom"

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Of course it does.
In America you sue large amounts of money when people insult you or spread lies about you, while in Holland you only get a small fine.
So in America people are careful not to insult or spread lies about people ( unles they can afford it) because they are afraid to be sued straight into poverty.

Not necessarily TD.

You can ONLY sue IF, and its a BIG if - you can prove that you were financially harmed by the lie.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last Tuesday that Web loggers, website operators and e-mail list editors can't be held responsible for libel for information they republish, extending crucial First Amendment protections to do-it-yourself online publishers.

Bloggers Gain Libel Protection
The number of libel and slander suits in the United States are minimal. The number of successful libel and/or slander suits is minuscule