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Most older people already have IDs. It's ridiculous to assume that anyone in this country could have gone about their daily business without some type of ID all this time. It's not even feasible.
As for younger folks who need an ID, it's not as traumatic as you're making it out to be.
ONE from column A and ONE from column B or 2 from column A.
How hard is it for someone to come up with a utility bill, a rental lease, a bank statement, a student ID, etc?
It isn't that hard, and the idea that there's so many out there who simply cannot come up with these documents or paperwork is absurd.
You didn't say it in your post, but many do say it in other debates that it makes it harder for "people of color", as if "people of color" have no idea how to get an ID, or have never had an ID, etc. It's an extremely racist thing to say.
As for the elderly, that you used in your argument, they aren't stupid and frail and incapable of getting an ID at some point in their life. All they would have to do is provide that old ID and a water bill, they are fine.
Millions of Americans have managed to figure out how to get IDs, but now, suddenly people want to pretend that getting an ID is hard. It's not hard. It may take more time for some, those "rural" people who apparently don't have a car...I mean, how do you all think rural people live? Do you really think they are all just little old ladies sitting alone in their house way out in the corn fields with no phone, no car, no people in their lives? Is that really what you think?
You are reading a lot into what I said.
I am talking about proving state residency, as a US citizen, not proving citizenship itself.
The items from Column B do not apply to US citizens, they apply to non-citizens living here legally, for the purpose of getting a driver's license in this state.
Also, you assume that I am talking about people who have never had an ID.
I am not. As I said in my original post, that is another topic, and not the one I am addressing.
I did not mention the racial aspect because that was not my point, either. I did mention the elderly as being people who could be impacted, but I also said that was not the intended topic of my post. Once again, my post is about proving state residency, not US citizenship. Please do not accuse me of either racism or calling the elderly "stupid." I have done no such thing.
I want to give you a situation. I would like to call it hypothetical, but it is not.
A person moves to this state, valid ID from former state in hand.
This person lives with a friend. No lease, no property taxes, no utility bills, no employment records with the new address. This person does not work outside the home, own a car, or have any form of insurance in their own name.
Now, you tell me, what two items from Column A (remember, Column B is for people who are not US citizens and who merely want a driver's license) is this person going to provide to get this ID? And yeah, it is a problem that goes further than voting rights, because it also means they cannot get a license in their new home state.
I will be interested in reading your reply. Right now, I need to step away from the computer, as the implication that I am pretending anything has me so angry I can't see straight.
Last edited by Catgirl64; 12-09-2018 at 02:10 PM..
In any case, the numbers are irrelevant. Those people are still citizens, and they still have a right to vote.
i agree, but still the documents are so easy to get, if somebody has problem getting them, its either illegal or they are too stupid to vote. we need to get out of the political correctness and say "people here what you need, get them" and I bet 100% would have no problems.
my state was given FREE id, and people still complain about the cost. If 99% of the people can get an ID with no problem, in today society. those that cant going have problems living
everybody complains about voter id, those without id are what, less than 1%. maybe it time to complain about something else that really matters, the odds are better
Even truck driver's who don't own or rent a home anymore, just live out on the road, will have some kind of box for mail. They have to have a license from some state. You can't drive without a license. There is no such thing as "a license from no state". So whatever state is on your license, that is considered your home state. If you don't want to have an actual address, you can always use a friend's or family member's address for things that require you to have an address, but in the end, the very fact that you are driving means you have a license, which means that you have a home state, whether you like it or not.
International drivers license would be an exception though, they do not list the state in which you reside. (at least they didnt 15 yrs ago, not sure about today).
I worked with a guy who got one of these and he used it as his ID for many years, our employer accepted it as an ID, He also used it at the DMV when he transferred vehicles, never had any trouble with anyone not accepting it as far as I know.
I am talking about proving state residency, as a US citizen, not proving citizenship itself.
The items from Column B do not apply to US citizens, they apply to non-citizens living here legally, for the purpose of getting a driver's license in this state.
Also, you assume that I am talking about people who have never had an ID.
I am not. As I said in my original post, that is another topic, and not the one I am addressing.
I did not mention the racial aspect because that was not my point, either. I did mention the elderly as being people who could be impacted, but I also said that was not the intended topic of my post. Once again, my post is about proving state residency, not US citizenship. Please do not accuse me of either racism or calling the elderly "stupid." I have done no such thing.
I want to give you a situation. I would like to call it hypothetical, but it is not.
A person moves to this state, valid ID from former state in hand.
This person lives with a friend. No lease, no property taxes, no utility bills, no employment records with the new address. This person does not work outside the home, own a car, or have any form of insurance in their own name.
Now, you tell me, what two items from Column A (remember, Column B is for people who are not US citizens and who merely want a driver's license) is this person going to provide to get this ID? And yeah, it is a problem that goes further than voting rights, because it also means they cannot get a license in their new home state.
I will be interested in reading your reply. Right now, I need to step away from the computer, as the implication that I am pretending anything has me so angry that I am trembling.
Have you ever moved states? I have, and will again within the next two months.
I will:
Get my mail forwarded to a post office box since we will be living temporarily with relatives while we look for land and have a house built.
I will transfer my driver’s license using my relative’s physical address, which I by state law must do within 30 days. However, all the following apply to state ID also.
I could bring in a deed or lease with me listed as living there - which I will not have.
A letter mailed to me by a utility company/government agency - which I will not have.
An insurance policy with a state address on it - it will be coming to a PO Box, so won’t work.
This means I will fall under homeless rules:
I will be able to bring in a notarized statement by my relative (or the relative themselves with their proof to sign in front of the clerk) to vouch for my residency.
I can bring in a signed statement on letterhead stationary with contact information from either my employer, if I’m employed, or even my husband’s employer if it includes both of our names.
I can bring in a letter on letterhead with a contact number from a homeless shelter, social worker, law enforcement agency, health agency, or recognized charitable organization stating they know I live in the state.
Or, in the state I am moving to, the County Clerk can decide there is sufficient reason to believe I am a resident and at his/her own discretion can sign off on my residency request.
Once I get my license I will walk down the hall to register to vote, giving me another required item.
I checked in 10 states other than the one I currently live in, the one I’m moving to, and Tennessee, then stopped, because every single one of them had provisions for establishing residency of homeless individuals. I assume if “backwards” Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, and West Virginia have legal accommodations to establish residency for those with no lease, no property taxes, no utility bills, no employment records with the new address, who do not work outside the home, own a car, or have any form of insurance in their own name, surely the alleged more enlightened states do also.
You are using Homeland Security requirements for Real ID and mixing it up with state level establishment of residency. They are not the same and the easier state requirements can be used to get the more stringent proof required by the federal Homeland Security Real ID guidelines.
I’m not sure what else they are supposed to do to address your concerns. Tthe person themselves needs to take some effort - at least a tiny bit. Are you looking to go back to the days where there is no requirement for identification? That’s not going to happen. At some point, you have to start wondering if a person like you describe is a fugitive from justice or an off-the-grid fanatic.
__________________
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Have you ever moved states? I have, and will again within the next two months.
I will:
Get my mail forwarded to a post office box since we will be living temporarily with relatives while we look for land and have a house built.
I will transfer my driver’s license using my relative’s physical address, which I by state law must do within 30 days. However, all the following apply to state ID also.
I could bring in a deed or lease with me listed as living there - which I will not have.
A letter mailed to me by a utility company/government agency - which I will not have.
An insurance policy with a state address on it - it will be coming to a PO Box, so won’t work.
This means I will fall under homeless rules:
I will be able to bring in a notarized statement by my relative (or the relative themselves with their proof to sign in front of the clerk) to vouch for my residency.
I can bring in a signed statement on letterhead stationary with contact information from either my employer, if I’m employed, or even my husband’s employer if it includes both of our names.
I can bring in a letter on letterhead with a contact number from a homeless shelter, social worker, law enforcement agency, health agency, or recognized charitable organization stating they know I live in the state.
Or, in the state I am moving to, the County Clerk can decide there is sufficient reason to believe I am a resident and at his/her own discretion can sign off on my residency request.
Once I get my license I will walk down the hall to register to vote, giving me another required item.
I checked in 10 states other than the one I currently live in, the one I’m moving to, and Tennessee, then stopped, because every single one of them had provisions for establishing residency of homeless individuals. I assume if “backwards†Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, and West Virginia have legal accommodations to establish residency for those with no lease, no property taxes, no utility bills, no employment records with the new address, who do not work outside the home, own a car, or have any form of insurance in their own name, surely the alleged more enlightened states do also.
You are using Homeland Security requirements for Real ID and mixing it up with state level establishment of residency. They are not the same and the easier state requirements can be used to get the more stringent proof required by the federal Homeland Security Real ID guidelines.
I’m not sure what else they are supposed to do to address your concerns. Tthe person themselves needs to take some effort - at least a tiny bit. Are you looking to go back to the days where there is no requirement for identification? That’s not going to happen. At some point, you have to start wondering if a person like you describe is a fugitive from justice or an off-the-grid fanatic.
No, I'm not. I said more than once that I have no objection to requiring ID. I'm not sure what you mean by confusing the state requirements with the Real ID requirements, because in Tennessee, they are one and the same, as far as I have been able to discern.
I have moved out of state before, more than once. I will call the Tennessee DMV Monday and ask them if the homeless rules apply in this case.
I can assure you the person in question is neither a fugitive nor a fanatic, just a person who lives with a friend. I guarantee it.
I am talking about proving state residency, as a US citizen, not proving citizenship itself.
The items from Column B do not apply to US citizens, they apply to non-citizens living here legally, for the purpose of getting a driver's license in this state.
Also, you assume that I am talking about people who have never had an ID.
I am not. As I said in my original post, that is another topic, and not the one I am addressing.
I did not mention the racial aspect because that was not my point, either. I did mention the elderly as being people who could be impacted, but I also said that was not the intended topic of my post. Once again, my post is about proving state residency, not US citizenship. Please do not accuse me of either racism or calling the elderly "stupid." I have done no such thing.
I want to give you a situation. I would like to call it hypothetical, but it is not.
A person moves to this state, valid ID from former state in hand.
This person lives with a friend. No lease, no property taxes, no utility bills, no employment records with the new address. This person does not work outside the home, own a car, or have any form of insurance in their own name.
Now, you tell me, what two items from Column A (remember, Column B is for people who are not US citizens and who merely want a driver's license) is this person going to provide to get this ID? And yeah, it is a problem that goes further than voting rights, because it also means they cannot get a license in their new home state.
I will be interested in reading your reply. Right now, I need to step away from the computer, as the implication that I am pretending anything has me so angry I can't see straight.
At the least you'd have a bank statement that would have to have your current address. How hard is it to actually get a job and get a paycheck with the address on it? Or at the least, have the "friend" create a lease agreement with your name on it? We're talking about a ridiculously small portion of the adult population in this nation that would have any kind of an issue with something as basic as this.
What if I travel, say I have an RV and am touring national parks and don't care to be a "resident" of any state and just want to vote for president.
That's a pretty interesting question but for starters the RV would need to be titled, insured and registered in some state. I'm fairly certain those would all require an address.
There is couple studies out there and most estimate around 10% of eligible voters would not have the required ID, that narrows even further for people that actually vote.
No, I'm not. I said more than once that I have no objection to requiring ID. I'm not sure what you mean by confusing the state requirements with the Real ID requirements, because in Tennessee, they are one and the same, as far as I have been able to discern.
I have moved out of state before, more than once. I will call the Tennessee DMV Monday and ask them if the homeless rules apply in this case.
I can assure you the person in question is neither a fugitive nor a fanatic, just a person who lives with a friend. I guarantee it.
Possibly a utility bill could be placed in your friend’s name or a nominal rent paid.
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