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Reading the article, this is what I got from it. Those scholars likely know better, but don't want to know better. Their little "institute" talks about studying history from a southern perspective. It was southerners themselves(back in those days) who admitted that slavery was a major part of their desire for secession.
I posted it because of the poll data (blacks in the South self-identify as Southerners, with recent polls putting the figure in the mid 70s.) and the southern blacks regional identity, which you seem to not know anything about.
In which I will add to that, the south is the Bible Belt. Where as religion, that goes all the way back before the civil war and the Christian flag. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the pigmentation of one's skin. It is through one's religion, one will find unity. Just as those who reject, religion as a basis, for their principle beliefs will also find unity.
There is more to the story of us, which you clearly refute, stating only the majority have a say into the accounting records in the history of America. It is still much the same today as it was then ... those who will say the accounting does not add up, to the whole story. The minority will always be around to rectify and they are not going away any time soon; possibly more will join the ranks, as they too (find validation) will uncover, the documents that history books don't talk about. (there will come a time when this too shall pass)
What is 'American Pride'? Same difference as Southern Pride, just on a broader scale. If there was an attack on the American way of life, how would that work out? The answer to that is complicated as people are complicated, where no two people are exactly alike, but where groups will find a common ground.
"Starting around 1898, well before it became an icon of redneck backlash, the Confederate Battle Flag served for half a century as an important pennant in the expanding American empire and a symbol of national unification, not polarization."
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 04-01-2019 at 10:42 AM..
Reason: to add link to prior post
This is a group of revisionist "scholars" who are trying to put their slant on history, basically supporters of secession, and whitewashers of the legacy. It's no accident that they're named after the hometown of John C. Calhoun. Why am I not surprised that you'd put this up?
I'm wondering if Emory University got tired of him.
As for John C. Calhoun, he was against the Wilmot Proviso. He wanted to see slavery expanded into the western territories that had been acquired. He was in favor of states' rights, but for the purpose of keeping slavery. Naming an institute after Calhoun's birthplace is pretty much paying tribute to that man.
The reason Livingston is trying to do historical revisionism is make it look like "well, it wasn't so bad".
I'm wondering if Emory University got tired of him.
As for John C. Calhoun, he was against the Wilmot Proviso. He wanted to see slavery expanded into the western territories that had been acquired. He was in favor of states' rights, but for the purpose of keeping slavery. Naming an institute after Calhoun's birthplace is pretty much paying tribute to that man.
The reason Livingston is trying to do historical revisionism is make it look like "well, it wasn't so bad".
The slave trade was banned in 1807. Not one of those documents you like so well, reinstates it. So what was the expansion all about, really?
I posted it because of the poll data (blacks in the South self-identify as Southerners, with recent polls putting the figure in the mid 70s.) and the southern blacks regional identity, which you seem to not know anything about.
In which I will add to that, the south is the Bible Belt. Where as religion, that goes all the way back before the civil war and the Christian flag. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the pigmentation of one's skin. It is through one's religion, one will find unity. Just as those who reject, religion as a basis, for their principle beliefs will also find unity.
There is more to the story of us, which you clearly refute, stating only the majority have a say into the accounting records in the history of America. It is still much the same today as it was then ... those who will say the accounting does not add up, to the whole story. The minority will always be around to rectify and they are not going away any time soon; possibly more will join the ranks, as they too (find validation) will uncover, the documents that history books don't talk about. (there will come a time when this too shall pass)
What is 'American Pride'? Same difference as Southern Pride, just on a broader scale. If there was an attack on the American way of life, how would that work out? The answer to that is complicated as people are complicated, where no two people are exactly alike, but where groups will find a common ground.
"Starting around 1898, well before it became an icon of redneck backlash, the Confederate Battle Flag served for half a century as an important pennant in the expanding American empire and a symbol of national unification, not polarization."
The Abbeville Institute is a pro-Confederate organization. It is going to be heavily biased. The kind of persons who would be attracted to that are going to be pro-Confederate types. By the way, I live in the South. I know more about how some people identify with being southern far more than you'd like to believe.
And yes, I know the South is the Bible Belt. Religion has nothing to do with skin color. That's obvious. But we're talking about the Confederate flag here, not the Christian faith. Most Blacks identify as Christians, so there you go.
The majority have far more of a say in this than the minority. If the majority of Blacks do not like or identify with the Confederate flag, that matters the most. A few Black people identifying with it do not negate the majority NOT identifying with it. You just don't like what I have to say. I know more about what I'm talking about than you would like to believe.
This is what I know. Alot of Black people live in the South, more than any other part of the USA. Number of Blacks I've seen in person flying a Confederate flag: Zero. Not even in rural areas. I've seen 2 Black people in my entire live wear anything with the Confederate flag on it. Ask yourself why the majority of Black Americans do not identify with the Confederate flag, why most don't see it as "southern heritage". And no biased resources either. Pro-Confederate resources not allowed.
The slave trade was banned in 1807. Not one of those documents you like so well, reinstates it. So what was the expansion all about, really?
The slave trade wouldn't be re-instated. So what? Slavery was still defended and the desire to keep slavery. The Articles of Secession were very clear about wanting to keep slavery the fear of it being abolished. The Confederate Constitution explicitly protects slavery, regardless of the fact that there would be no slave trade. Alexander Stephens and William Tappan Thompson spoke of slavery as being essential and they felt that Blacks needed to be enslaved. John C. Calhoun was against the Wilmot Proviso would would limit any expansion of slavery into the western territories.
Your red herring statements doesn't change what the Confederate cause was about.
The Abbeville Institute is a pro-Confederate organization. It is going to be heavily biased. The kind of persons who would be attracted to that are going to be pro-Confederate types. By the way, I live in the South. I know more about how some people identify with being southern far more than you'd like to believe.
And yes, I know the South is the Bible Belt. Religion has nothing to do with skin color. That's obvious. But we're talking about the Confederate flag here, not the Christian faith. Most Blacks identify as Christians, so there you go.
The majority have far more of a say in this than the minority. If the majority of Blacks do not like or identify with the Confederate flag, that matters the most. A few Black people identifying with it do not negate the majority NOT identifying with it. You just don't like what I have to say. I know more about what I'm talking about than you would like to believe.
This is what I know. Alot of Black people live in the South, more than any other part of the USA. Number of Blacks I've seen in person flying a Confederate flag: Zero. Not even in rural areas. I've seen 2 Black people in my entire live wear anything with the Confederate flag on it. Ask yourself why the majority of Black Americans do not identify with the Confederate flag, why most don't see it as "southern heritage". And no biased resources either. Pro-Confederate resources not allowed.
I'm more interested in why you think the minority doesn't have a say in it or they carry with them no weight to the matter. Even with you trying to pigeon toe this debate, it does not take away their voice.
Quote:
By the way, I live in the South.
We have that in common. My parents (adopted me from birth) were born (1919 - 1920) and lived through the Great Depression; my grandmother (born 1889) picked cotton in the fields here. I was born and raised Texan; my father a yankee. Got to love migration as my biological mother is (I suspect she isn't dead, yet) German.
None of that matters ...
Quote:
Confederate flag here, not the Christian faith
It is a Christian Flag ... To understand the culture 158+ years ago and how it effects today's views on historical facts, one must include the African American religious experience. Without that there is only a partial accounting ... and there is no honor in doing that. A huge part of what separates the south from the other regions in the u.s is it's religious history and that that continues to be a part of our lives today.
Seeing as how all you want to discuss is the one-sided views. It seems we are done here. To be honest, this thread was done as soon as it began with your determination not to accept the others points of view on this issue. You are not wrong GM, but you are not 100% right either. I suspect you know that, you just don't want to recognize it.
I am not here to speak for anyone but me, a life long Southerner. The flag does not represent me. it does not stand for what I stand for. When I see it, I see racism and white supremacy. I see uneducated folks repeating the tired, stale line of "hurritage, not hate." They talk about their ancestors who fought for a morally bankrupt cause. My take is if the only part of the population who likes that flag are white people, then maybe there's something wrong with wht the flag stands for.
When I see it flying now, it's never outside a really nice looking house with a well kept yard and a nice house. It typically flies on the grounds of a ramshackle house or single wide where there are more cars in the weeds in disrepair than there are in the driveway. It's never on the grounds of the best or the brightest. It's at the home of Bubba and Loretta with their five fat kids in tank tops. Judgmental of me? Maybe, but only from 49 years of seeing my fellow Southern white folks.
One guy who has some mutual Facebook friends as me has a rebel flag as his profile pic. But he also has a script at the bottom of it with "United we stand" written over an American flag. I messaged him once and simply wrote, "Oh, the irony." He wrote LOL back. I'm not sure he got what I meant. SMH Maybe he did
Well said. When visiting relatives in the south, I’ve been chatting to more than one nice, genteel southern lady, maybe about her roses or some such, and in the conversation, she’ll mention ‘damn yankees’. Memories are long in the south, maybe more so than anywhere.
When I see the confederate flag, I see a war that was fought to keep people enslaved. Wrong on so many levels. No wonder black people don’t want to be reminded of it. It’s history, put it away, but never forget.
Rural Washington has it’s share of confederate flags, think beat up, mud spattered, jacked up truck, zooming by you on a country road, the driver with mirror sunglasses and flying a confederate flag or two. Or my neighbors who fly one in front of their ramshackle house. Not the best and brightest by any means.
I'm more interested in why you think the minority doesn't have a say in it or they carry with them no weight to the matter. Even with you trying to pigeon toe this debate, it does not take away their voice.
I said the majority has MORE say in this matter. I feel this way because this is abot how the majority of Black Americans feel about the flag, not the minority.
Quote:
We have that in common. My parents (adopted me from birth) were born (1919 - 1920) and lived through the Great Depression; my grandmother (born 1889) picked cotton in the fields here. I was born and raised Texan; my father a yankee. Got to love migration as my biological mother is (I suspect she isn't dead, yet) German.
None of that matters ...
My father's family is from Mississippi. They left the South during the Great Migration. This is why my father is a Wisconsin native.
Quote:
It is a Christian Flag ... To understand the culture 158+ years ago and how it effects today's views on historical facts, one must include the African American religious experience. Without that there is only a partial accounting ... and there is no honor in doing that. A huge part of what separates the south from the other regions in the u.s is it's religious history and that that continues to be a part of our lives today.
Seeing as how all you want to discuss is the one-sided views. It seems we are done here. To be honest, this thread was done as soon as it began with your determination not to accept the others points of view on this issue. You are not wrong GM, but you are not 100% right either. I suspect you know that, you just don't want to recognize it.
St. Andrew's flag is a Christian flag. The Confederate flag, on the other hand, has nothing to do with being a Christian. It represents the Confederacy.
There is a reason the points of view you are trying to present are not pertinent to this thread. This is about why the majority of Black Americans, despite most having southern roots, don't identify with the Confederate flag or claim it as part of their southern heritage. This is about the majority opinion, not the minority opinion.
Well said. When visiting relatives in the south, I’ve been chatting to more than one nice, genteel southern lady, maybe about her roses or some such, and in the conversation, she’ll mention ‘damn yankees’. Memories are long in the south, maybe more so than anywhere.
The first time I ever heard "damn Yankee" in my life was in high school, from another student. She also referred to another student as the "N" word, but that's another story for another time. I remember that student saying "damn Yankee". She seemed to be the quiet type, but she had a fiery side to her. Hearing that come out of her mouth was surprising, but as I got to know here, she seemed like a hateful person. This wasn't some elderly woman. This was someone the same age as me (at the time we were both 16), and it was in 2002.
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When I see the confederate flag, I see a war that was fought to keep people enslaved. Wrong on so many levels. No wonder black people don’t want to be reminded of it. It’s history, put it away, but never forget.
At least you get where I'm coming from. I think about the cause that it represents and I don't like it. Now,I've grown up hearing admirers of the Confederate flag say that it represents southern heritage. In my heart it represented something different. However, I had to wonder about something. Am I the one who is crazy, or are some people just lying. And then I thought about something that I never considered. A majority of Black Americans are southerners, and to the majority of Black Americans, the Confederate flag doesn't represent southern heritage to them. That is a major inspiration for making this thread.
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Rural Washington has it’s share of confederate flags, think beat up, mud spattered, jacked up truck, zooming by you on a country road, the driver with mirror sunglasses and flying a confederate flag or two. Or my neighbors who fly one in front of their ramshackle house. Not the best and brightest by any means.
I lived in the state of Washington for a few years. I feel like it's part of me. However, it would be surprising to see a Confederate flag there. I'm not shocked to see it in Georgia. In WA state, that is as far north as you get outside of Alaska (Seattle is further north than the Maine/Quebec border). I then wonder "does said person know anything about the Confederate cause"?
Where I live, most of the time, I see the Confederate flag flown from jacked up trucks, and from houses that aren't ramshackle, but not that nice either. I might see one flown in a nice subdivision, but most of the time it's in working class areas or somewhat poor areas.
Well, you won't be seeing much of that in your life time. For every Black person that would fly a Confederate flag, there are about 90-95 Black people who would never fly it.
Again, this thread is about why so many Blacks DON'T identify with the Confederate flag, despite a majority of Blacks being southerners. This is not about that one Black guy who did fly a Confederate flag.
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To understand the culture 158+ years ago and how it effects today's views on historical facts, one must include the African American religious experience. Without that there is only a partial accounting ... and there is no honor in doing that. A huge part of what separates the south from the other regions in the u.s is it's religious history and that that continues to be a part of our lives today. 