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I've experienced some similarly disappointing "sentiment" from the other side too, a uniquely separatist perspective, again for the same old reasons that tend to separate people in general, into their various camps of religion or color or ethnic background. Them vs us. Some more contentious than others. Debate that hardly gets more contentious than this one...
You’re not in a position to ascertain blackness. So I’ll just ignore this post. This is just some online nonsense that you wouldn’t dream of saying in the presence of actual black folks.
Moving on...
I’m uniquely an American creation just like you. Both of our ancestors cane here under very difficult circumstances. Mine on Slave ships, yours in steerage on some ship because they were the poorest of the poor in Europe and couldn’t make a living because they had no skills and no prospects.
So of course I’m happy to have my life no matter where it is. If you’re asking me if I would’ve preferred the Slave trade as a means to an end because it provides my existence that I couldn’t have had otherwise, of course not. Of course I wish the Slave trade had never happened even though it means that I’m not here.
The connection you talk about is kinda silly. How many Chinese people do you know with an Irish or Spanish Surname? You have your family’s traditional name, so why the hell wouldn’t I desire my family’s traditional name. I’m not Irish, Spanish or Scottish even a tiny bit. I have absolutely no familial affinity for those groups. And I also have no ancestral connection to Christianity either. So why are you painting a yearning to connect with who you are by Blood as bad when you have that option?
Which military units did you serve with. I can name all of mine.
When did you ever serve this America that I hate so much according to you?
Quite disturbing that someone with your views had been allowed in the military, or were you radicalized after the fact???? I do recall you posting that the Iranian terrorists who took over the Tehran embassy in 1979 were within their rights to murder all the civilian hostages they took. This is sheer anti-Americanism on a level even AOC, Pocahontas and the Muslims in Congress like Rashida Tlaib wouldn't be so open about.
You and I have gone round and round before, so unless my "imaginary" black friends have been with me for a very long posting history, you can assume I am not telling the truth all you want.
Chances are the ones I'd introduce you to would not be black or militant enough for you to consider them actually black.
So while they are certainly more black than Obama was, they are not walking around blaming whitey for their troubles, or living with a perpetual chip on their shoulder.
So maybe our definition of black folks are much different, as I we would not be friends if they were with NoI, BLM, or BHI racist nutjobs.
The same is true of whites who are members of the KKK, ANP or GAB. Life is too short to waste on harden racist fools whose future is bleak, and are ruled by hate rather than decency.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
You’re not in a position to ascertain blackness. So I’ll just ignore this post. This is just some online nonsense that you wouldn’t dream of saying in the presence of actual black folks.
Moving on...
I find it amusing how you avoid the tough posts or questions, and love to just "move on".
Yet I don't understand this comment about not dreaming of having such a discussion in the presence of actual black folks.
While my conversations do not always gravitate to race when being with a black friend, coworker, employee, etc., it does occasionally come up.
Funny enough some of the most interesting conversations about race were not initiated by me, but rather the black person I was with.
For example, one night a teammate and I were out having a few beers after playing, and he brought up how he hated affirmation action.
It surprised me because his comment came out of left field, not related to anything we had been talking about.
I asked him why, and he said he was one of the best students in college, and had climbed the ladder of success in the federal prosecutors office through hard work and merit. Yet many a person assumed he got where he was at because of a program that valued race and sex over merit and achievement. He couldn't stand those who were incompetent and got there through AA, as it made all those who made it on their own suspected of not earning it.
Needless to say I also despised affirmation action, but for different reasons. So here was a subject we both agreed on, but from very different perspectives.
The point is that while I would not have had any problems discussing the issue with him because he was black, it wouldn't have dawned on me to bring it up since we were talking sports, women, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
No connection to what you were born and bred into by your American ancestors, vs. yearning for a completely different culture you have no connection to?
Heck in this day and age of fast and cheap worldwide travel, why have you not headed for the continent you believe your distant ancestors came from, to see what you life could have been
Simple question that I doubt will get a straight answer (knowing your posting history).
If given a choice of your ancestors having never left Africa, or them being brought to this former European colony as slaves, which would you choose?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
I’m uniquely an American creation just like you. Both of our ancestors cane here under very difficult circumstances. Mine on Slave ships, yours in steerage on some ship because they were the poorest of the poor in Europe and couldn’t make a living because they had no skills and no prospects.
So of course I’m happy to have my life no matter where it is. If you’re asking me if I would’ve preferred the Slave trade as a means to an end because it provides my existence that I couldn’t have had otherwise, of course not. Of course I wish the Slave trade had never happened even though it means that I’m not here.
The connection you talk about is kinda silly. How many Chinese people do you know with an Irish or Spanish Surname? You have your family’s traditional name, so why the hell wouldn’t I desire my family’s traditional name. I’m not Irish, Spanish or Scottish even a tiny bit. I have absolutely no familial affinity for those groups. And I also have no ancestral connection to Christianity either. So why are you painting a yearning to connect with who you are by Blood as bad when you have that option?
Lets start with what I put in bold first.
I think you are either being naive or intentionally obtuse to say you are not grateful to be born in America, slave trade or not.
Needless to say we can both agree that if given the ability to keep that inhumanity from ever occurring, we'd hope to prevent it.
However, we both know had slaves never been brought to this continent (before we were even a nation), you'd never be an American citizen, and instead be living in Africa.
This assumes you'd even be alive, as the same black people who enslaved you and sold you to various counties might just have easily killed your ancestors.
Many an African country and/or tribe brutally killed each other, with attempts to wipe out every member of the other tribe.
What the Hutu's did to the Tutsi's was just as repulsive as what Hitler did to the Jews, as it was an attempted genocide.
To make matters worse, it occurred just 25 years ago, not in centuries past. To think anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million men, women, and children were slaughtered (many being hacked to death) in Africa. So recent history alone gives you an idea of how hard it is to survive in the dark continent for any length of time.
Rest assured many black American citizens would not even be alive today had it not been for the slave trade.
That does not mean they should rejoice for slavery, but neither can they deny their very existence in this country was a byproduct of that inhumanity.
As to your yearning to connect with your roots (no pun intended), there is nothing wrong with that at all. Many an American wants to know from where they came, and some spend considerable time and money trying to trace their ancestry.
most have that luxury if they so choose, most black Americans descended from slavery unfortunately do not, which is a shame.
So that is why I asked you the question, to try to ascertain whether your comment reflected a normal desire, or some deep seeded hatred for America, and wanting to connect to a culture that would be as alien to you as it would be to me.
For all you know, your may have come from a peace loving tribe that was wiped out by a savage one. Conversely, your ancestral tribe could have been the ones hacking women and children to death.
The point is that you and your families lives are almost certainly better off for having slavery brought your ancestors to this country.
The suffering and indignity they went through at least paved the way for their descendants to have a much brighter future than most back in Africa today.
As to the last point, most ethnic groups who came to this country believed in the the American motto, "out of many, one".
That is not to say they do not have ethnic pride, but they also accepted the belief of assimilation into the unique american culture that allowed you to be free, but also expected you to put allegiance to America first.
President Teddy Roosevelt had a great speech about this just a little over 100 years ago, saying there was no place in this country for hyphenated-Americans.
This was not meant to say we must all be the same and monolithic, but our allegiance must be to this country over all others, including where our ancestors came from.
As to names many a German, Pole, Irish, Italian, etc., changed their kids names from Giuseppe to Joseph, Shamus to James, etc.
They insisted their kids learn the native tongue, and did much to have their future generations assimilate into American culture.
Now days, far too often Democrats push identity politics, try to be divisive and the opposite of assimilation. It is toxic to our countries future.
But I digress.
I will let you absorb these two replies, and hope you reply with a thoughtful post in return.
Why? because democrats refuse to stand up for Israel, they even have gone so far as to place an anti-Semitic congresswoman to a security committee and hob nob with Farrakhan another anti-semite
AIPAC is the largest and most powerful lobbyist group in the US. The Zionist infiltration of our Government has made it absolutely impossible to NOT "stand up" for Israel, so mentioning fringe personalities is stupid and meaningless. BILLIONS and BILLIONS comes from all taxpaying American paychecks every year to support the largest welfare state in the World, and TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS has been wasted in the region on wars of aggression based on Israeli "intel" and security.
We need to REMOVE and SEVER all foreign agents in this country---they are traitors and should be hanged.
BTW---The most pathetic part of all this infiltration and corruption is Republicans LOVE paying BILLIONS to support free-healthcare and education in Israel for their pretty liberal population---but how about in the US? NOPE We are turning into a poverty-stricken wasteland with no Middle Class and people dying because they can't afford medicine. It's disgusting.
AIPAC is the largest and most powerful lobbyist group in the US. The Zionist infiltration of our Government has made it absolutely impossible to NOT "stand up" for Israel, so mentioning fringe personalities is stupid and meaningless. BILLIONS and BILLIONS comes from all taxpaying American paychecks every year to support the largest welfare state in the World, and TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS has been wasted in the region on wars of aggression based on Israeli "intel" and security.
We need to REMOVE and SEVER all foreign agents in this country---they are traitors and should be hanged.
BTW---The most pathetic part of all this infiltration and corruption is Republicans LOVE paying BILLIONS to support free-healthcare and education in Israel for their pretty liberal population---but how about in the US? NOPE We are turning into a poverty-stricken wasteland with no Middle Class and people dying because they can't afford medicine. It's disgusting.
The question wasn't about not standing up for Israel - it was about standing up for Jews. Or do you use those two terms interchangeably.
And who exactly do you mean by foreign agents? Are you saying we should kill - you did say hanged - ambassadors? Or just the Jew ambassador? I ask because all your venom is directed at Israel.
False premise. Republicans don't stand up for Jewish Americans. Republicans stand up for Israel, which is quite different. Mostly this is about some evangelical belief in prophecies about Israel, and general antipathy toward her Arab neighbors.
Democrats are more likely to call out bigotry, including anti-semitism, and the majority of Jewish Americans vote Democrat.
Then why did the Democrats assign the anti-Semitic Congresswoman (or, at a minimum, the congresswoman who was once again forced to apologize for voicing antisemitic trobes) the role of disrespecting the Jewish witness giving testimony? Her hatred was palpable.
They wouldn't have allowed a racist, who had the previous day made some anti-black comment, hostilely question a black witness. But because it's the Jews.....eh. And now we have another one in liberal North Virginia - saying Israel is worse than the KKK. If the libs in that county elect him, oye.
And they suddenly decided to do this....like right around 9/11?
That's fantastic. Trillions of dollars are/were involved.
In case you think my answer is off the wall....here it is in nicer terms by those who study it:
"According to political scientists, two fundamental forces combined to transform the GOP into the hardcore pro-Israel party we know today. First, the rise of the religious right, which sees hard-line support for Israel as a religious obligation. Second, the neoconservative movement successfully convinced most Republican leaders that being pro-Israel should be a core conservative value."
Note - Neo-Con is short for trillions down the tube and an unlimited Security State and spending. "Conservatives" like Israel because of the testing grounds for war toys, and partnerships in an ultimate security state (which Israel needs...but we don't...and shouldn't).
Anyway, I think my answer is close to the mark. Folks can feel free to make up others.
The polling shows a marked change....right along with the ride of the neo-cons in the early 2000's.
It is indeed odd how they would support Israel since it is more socialist than European countries.
They have universal healthcare that we subsidize with the welfare money we give them not mention we fight their enemies at the drop of a hat.
Mexican American, wtf is that? You are either American or Mexican unless you have dual citizenship.
Maybe your think is the problem? Do we a have Gay American status? Hell no, figure it out dude.
You don't know what you're talking about. When immigrants came to this country mainly from European countries, they did refer to each other by their heritage, not just as Americans, and that has gone on for generations. German-Americans, Italian-Americans, etc. Today most of them are just thought of as European Americans because the different ethnic groups have mixed so much. Hard to call someone who is English, German, French, Irish, Scottish, Norwegian, Swedish and Swiss as anything but a European mix, which is what I am by the way. It wasn't and isn't a slight to call someone Italian-American or Mexican-American, for example. Heck, blacks in this country want to be called African-Americans.
So get used to it bub or if you can't handle diversity and the way we do and say things go back to Mexico or wherever you came from. Deal with it and quit whining.
As for support for Israel, they are surrounded by Muslim countries that have already tried to destroy them. Without the United States as their ally they would have been invaded again and defeated. That is the biggest reason, along with the fact they are civilized human beings for the most part. There are the religious aspects to it as well. I'm not the biggest fan of rude, hateful, condescending jerks like Netanyahu, however I do believe the United States should support Israel to help it defend itself from its enemies, and even fight alongside them if necessary.
Edit to add: I see now the question was about Jewish Americans, not Israel. I'd like to think most of us stand up against any American being discriminated against. The United States is one of the best places for Jews to live in freedom. Of course there are isolated attacks on Jews, and there are those who are prejudiced against them, but overall I believe its a safe country for them. Certainly safer than many European countries Muslims invaded three or four years ago.
I find it amusing how you avoid the tough posts or questions, and love to just "move on".
Yet I don't understand this comment about not dreaming of having such a discussion in the presence of actual black folks.
While my conversations do not always gravitate to race when being with a black friend, coworker, employee, etc., it does occasionally come up.
Funny enough some of the most interesting conversations about race were not initiated by me, but rather the black person I was with.
For example, one night a teammate and I were out having a few beers after playing, and he brought up how he hated affirmation action.
It surprised me because his comment came out of left field, not related to anything we had been talking about.
I asked him why, and he said he was one of the best students in college, and had climbed the ladder of success in the federal prosecutors office through hard work and merit. Yet many a person assumed he got where he was at because of a program that valued race and sex over merit and achievement. He couldn't stand those who were incompetent and got there through AA, as it made all those who made it on their own suspected of not earning it.
Needless to say I also despised affirmation action, but for different reasons. So here was a subject we both agreed on, but from very different perspectives.
The point is that while I would not have had any problems discussing the issue with him because he was black, it wouldn't have dawned on me to bring it up since we were talking sports, women, etc.
I find your story interesting in more than a couple ways...
For example your friend brings up the subject of affirmative action from out of nowhere. Perhaps more evidence of an ego in need of more than average attention, but beyond what might be the case on a personal level, I think you both don't understand affirmative action very well or well enough.
No doubt not perfect, but the objective was to overcome obstacles to opportunity for POC that were a significant problem for POC who could not access the opportunity taken for granted by whites, due to blatant racism going back to the beginning of America.
Which is worse? Your friend achieves a level of success and has insecurity or "heartburn" about what people think, or your friend is not allowed that level of success because he is black? We might argue to the end of days how your friend would have done if not for any affirmative action policies, but there is no quesetion about the stifling affect that racism was having on such opportunity for POC before the need for affirmative action became altogether apparent.
Everyone tends to hate WHY affirmative action became necessary as a means to overcome the entrenched status quo that was clearly racist, even though there were negative side effects and mixed results. Easy to understand how your friend might be sensitive about his success, just like a woman might be seen as "sleeping her way to the top," or name your insecurity, but the fact remains that breaking the traditional problems of racism was helped along by way of the Civil Rights movement, anti-segregation efforts and affirmative action, in more ways than we know.
Not perfect. Still a long way to go, but personal anecdotes don't very well represent the overall sea change that these initiatives helped along in ways that would have never happened without such intervention.
Not sure this is the "thoughtful post in return" you were hoping for, and of course you didn't pin those hopes on me. I didn't get around to reading all the rest you wrote, but my thoughts on the subject of affirmative action in any case...
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