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We all come to these topics from various perspectives. Some are "team blue," "team red" ... others to support Trump, others to decry him ... some are concerned how illegal immigration's impacted them personally or the overall country, others maybe see only the dog whistle politics. Your perspective is to look for confirmation bias, and no doubt that can be found in abundance. But in that finding I'm sure you're aware of the danger that you also may fall victim.
The definition: the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.
What makes you think that anyone believes their arguments would change someone's mind about "Trump's damn wall" even if it is a damn wall? That would be a foolish waste of time and effort. Not much evidence on these thread that's occurring.
Perhaps many spend time on these forums for reasons that do not differ in some essential way from your own. I've not read through your thread why we believe as we do. There's probably some pretty good stuff in there so maybe I should find it. My guess is that's the question of essential interest to you - belief. And so you analyze posts from the perspective that they primarily reflect belief. Some no doubt do, others maybe not.
I'm not too sure I follow what you are trying to explain here, but not true my "perspective is to look for confirmation bias!" You might as well be suggesting I am looking for the Sun to rise the next morning when I go to sleep at night. That's not a perspective. That's just recognizing reality, that we are all victims of confirmation bias to one extent or another, and that's a serious challenge when attempting to apply critical thinking, objective reason and logic!
No doubt few if any will change their mind about anything in this forum, regardless the facts, reason or logic. That should be no surprise to anyone who has been a part of this forum for any length of time. That's simply a fact, not a perspective, far as I'm concerned. I continue to point out this proof of how confirmation bias rules the day for a few reasons; 1) maybe gets people to think more about WHY their opinion is locked in to what it is and 2) because I am hoping someone might someday give a good reason to think the exchange of informed opinion is anything but a waste of time in this forum.
Maybe some are here to just waste time or maybe to insult others who don't share their perspective, or who knows why, but I am always feeling even all the more intelligent efforts are a waste of time. No matter the facts. I think I waste time here because I am always tempted to test the challenge of confirmation bias just like I do my best to avoid it, but especially in this forum, I'm finding little reward or success along those lines...
One of the basic ideas of the Constitution is that (1) Presidents don't make the laws, and (2) certain powers - including Power of the Purse - are reserved for the Congress.
With this "national emergency," you conservatives support your guy just bypassing Congress altogether and implementing his policies (which he couldn't get support through Congress) via royal decree.
That's basically called a dictatorship. Might as well disband Congress and just annoint Donald as King.
If you're for this stuff, then you're opposed to the spirit and concept of the Constitution.
Fortunately, any such action can be met by court challenge and then chewed up and spit out by the Supreme court.
DACA for example is still facing constitutional challenges and is likely not within the power of the president but hey, under the constitution that's how the courts get involved.
Ironic that two different actions relating to illegal immigration and the one you're good with and the other is a dictatorial action despite facing the same gauntlet of legal challenges.
I don't support Trumps national emergency use in this way, but at the same time I don't like having to read a bunch of partisan hypocrisy and obtuse commentary about dictators blah blah blah.
I think the numerous heroin epidemics are a very serious national emergency, in that I agree with Trump, the majority is coming from Mexico, where it is grown, processed and packaged.
No doubt a concern worthy of note and also of course we need to do whatever we can to mitigate the problem of drugs in this country, but we should also understand that Trump's wall is not the panacea Trump wants us to believe in this regard...
Federal authorities seized more than 220 pounds of cocaine on two ships docked at a California port, the Los Angeles Times reported.
Pointing at our drug problem and suggesting Trump's wall is the solution, even a realistic partial solution is something like pointing at all illegal immigrants and suggesting they're mostly dangerous "bad hombre" criminals. AKA the difference between facts and propaganda...
I'll be clear. My belief is that Trump is a threat to reason. The man sets a bad example. I have no objection whatsoever about beliefs that some may hold on a subject. Not even if they may differ from my own. Or do not appear to take into account the facts of the matter. For who the hell always has the time or even inclination to delve deeply into some matters. The internet here can be both a curse and a blessing.
What role do these "facts" have? No argument that we selectively parse information to extract those facts that support our beliefs. That is confirmation bias. There is a difference, however, between that process and the outright denial of what may be hoped (and these days, that hope is sometimes unfounded) to be reasonably objective facts. This is what Trump is teaching ... IMHO.
Continuing on ... is it "wrong" to deny these so-called objective facts, Not really, if only because it's neurologically more efficient to organize incoming data into a preexisting belief system. But I would argue that one thing remain essential - that we continue to prize freedom of speech.
For me, it is a "good" to toss my facts are out there even though I totally accept it is entirely up to others what they do with them. In a large sense, I believe it is a moral exercise to look at or examine the implications of our actions and our facts. But again, I appreciate that our "brains" tells us no so best to withhold judgment.
In that light ... the fact - will the national emergency impact the daycares of our military? Here, the answer appears to be no. The associated question is - would we care if it did? That is a question worth answering.
No doubt a concern worthy of note and also of course we need to do whatever we can to mitigate the problem of drugs in this country, but we should also understand that Trump's wall is not the panacea Trump wants us to believe in this regard...
Federal authorities seized more than 220 pounds of cocaine on two ships docked at a California port, the Los Angeles Times reported.
Pointing at our drug problem and suggesting Trump's wall is the solution, even a realistic partial solution is something like pointing at all illegal immigrants and suggesting they're mostly dangerous "bad hombre" criminals. AKA as the difference between facts and propaganda...
How can you be so sure the wall would not be effective?
Dont you find it kind of curious, all these narco experts and federal LE claim to know how the majority of street drugs are coming in...but they are STILL coming in consistently? If they truly know how 90% of dope comes in... they are either ridiculously ineffective or there is collusion.
So, maybe in reality, the most effective method to reduce or stop the drug flow...is something these 'experts' do NOT agree with?!! After all, if they have been so ineffective in their attempts, trying things they thought would work...it stands to reason, something they DO NOT think will work, may actually be the solution!
Besides that, these are the same federal 'narco LE' that thought cracking down on prescription opioids would be effective in reducing the drug overdose and death rate...when in reality, it only made things MUCH worse and more dangerous, and benefited the Mexican cartels greatly, so Im not sure I would trust anything they say.
I'm not too sure I follow what you are trying to explain here, but not true my "perspective is to look for confirmation bias!" You might as well be suggesting I am looking for the Sun to rise the next morning when I go to sleep at night. That's not a perspective. That's just recognizing reality, that we are all victims of confirmation bias to one extent or another, and that's a serious challenge when attempting to apply critical thinking, objective reason and logic!
Not really fair to write the bold, but I decided not to rewrite because it's an example of how difficult it is communication in this medium. Confirmation bias exists. It is reality. Per my above post, a neurologically-driven one. But it does not necessarily imply motivation. What I was questioning is whether you thought every post driven more by the process of confirmation bias than other factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
No doubt few if any will change their mind about anything in this forum, regardless the facts, reason or logic. That should be no surprise to anyone who has been a part of this forum for any length of time. That's simply a fact, not a perspective, far as I'm concerned. I continue to point out this proof of how confirmation bias rules the day for a few reasons; 1) maybe gets people to think more about WHY their opinion is locked in to what it is and 2) because I am hoping someone might someday give a good reason to think the exchange of informed opinion is anything but a waste of time in this forum.
Wrote more ... agree about the changing of minds. Your (1) I don't see that happening and (2) it is a plus if folks might underestand the reasoning of others, that stands are not necessarily driven by partisanship - this even though I fully admit to my intense dislike of Trumpian cheapening of my version of "truth" and so yes that prompts posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Maybe some are here to just waste time or maybe to insult others who don't share their perspective, or who knows why, but I am always feeling even all the more intelligent efforts are a waste of time. No matter the facts. I think I waste time here because I am always tempted to test the challenge of confirmation bias just like I do my best to avoid it, but especially in this forum, I'm finding little reward or success along those lines...
Your interest is the testing of confirmation bias; mine maybe more the throwing out of my "truths" (loaded with facts) ... again, maybe as an act of protest against Trumpian shenanigans.
I'll be clear. My belief is that Trump is a threat to reason. The man sets a bad example. I have no objection whatsoever about beliefs that some may hold on a subject. Not even if they may differ from my own. Or do not appear to take into account the facts of the matter. For who the hell always has the time or even inclination to delve deeply into some matters. The internet here can be both a curse and a blessing.
What role do these "facts" have? No argument that we selectively parse information to extract those facts that support our beliefs. That is confirmation bias. There is a difference, however, between that process and the outright denial of what may be hoped (and these days, that hope is sometimes unfounded) to be reasonably objective facts. This is what Trump is teaching ... IMHO.
Continuing on ... is it "wrong" to deny these so-called objective facts, Not really, if only because it's neurologically more efficient to organize incoming data into a preexisting belief system. But I would argue that one thing remain essential - that we continue to prize freedom of speech.
For me, it is a "good" to toss my facts are out there even though I totally accept it is entirely up to others what they do with them. In a large sense, I believe it is a moral exercise to look at or examine the implications of our actions and our facts. But again, I appreciate that our "brains" tells us no so best to withhold judgment.
In that light ... the fact - will the national emergency impact the daycares of our military? Here, the answer appears to be no. The associated question is - would we care if it did? That is a question worth answering.
I've got to sign off now for fear of wasting still more time that I don't have to waste, and your comment pops up as the last I'll read and reply to in this forum today...
"I have no objection whatsoever about beliefs that some may hold on a subject."
Why not? Are you okay with people having racist beliefs for example? What people believe can have profound impact on other people, how we progress as a people, or don't. I can't excuse ill informed opinion or ignorance that leads to bad leaders, bad government policy, bigotry, xenophobia, misogyny and all the rest! If you don't have the time to be informed, then how about you don't promote uninformed opinion!
If Trump is teaching as you describe (and I'm inclined to notice the same sort of thing), then those who can't see the same thing are also part of the problem! Not sure what you mean by a "so-called objective fact." Either it's a fact or it's not, and of course it is wrong to deny facts! Hello?
Definition of fact
1a : something that has actual existence
b : an actual occurrence
Problem is not only the denial of facts, however. There is also the understanding of facts, processing facts, the challenge of critical thinking!
Fact is the rooster crows in the morning and the fact is the Sun rises in the morning, but it's wrong to conclude from these facts that the rooster causes the Sun to rise. Very important not to draw the wrong conclusions from the facts, let alone be swayed by the sort of propaganda, misrepresentation of facts and flat out lies that Trump feeds to his similarly undiscerning supporters. That's okay? Oh HELL no!
I've got to sign off now for fear of wasting still more time that I don't have to waste, and your comment pops up as the last I'll read and reply to in this forum today...
"I have no objection whatsoever about beliefs that some may hold on a subject."
Why not? Are you okay with people having racist beliefs for example? What people believe can have profound impact on other people, how we progress as a people, or don't. I can't excuse ill informed opinion or ignorance that leads to bad leaders, bad government policy, bigotry, xenophobia, misogyny and all the rest! If you don't have the time to be informed, then how about you don't promote uninformed opinion!
If Trump is teaching as you describe (and I'm inclined to notice the same sort of thing), then those who can't see the same thing are also part of the problem! Not sure what you mean by a "so-called objective fact." Either it's a fact or it's not, and of course it is wrong to deny facts! Hello?
Definition of fact
1a : something that has actual existence
b : an actual occurrence
Problem is not only the denial of facts, however. There is also the understanding of facts, processing facts, the challenge of critical thinking!
Fact is the rooster crows in the morning and the fact is the Sun rises in the morning, but it's wrong to conclude from these facts that the rooster causes the Sun to rise. Very important not to draw the wrong conclusions from the facts, let alone be swayed by the sort of propaganda and misrepresentation of facts and flat out lies that Trump feeds to his similarly undiscerning supporters. That's okay? Oh HELL no!
Until the rooster crows tomorrow...
Best to be productive, yes. Briefly, I have no objection that people come to hold a belief. In a larger sense, that's a neurological ability. It's demonstrated in human history with the recognition that mankind exists separate from the Gods and their uses for them. Now I might reject that belief ... I might find it so reprehensible that I would advocate the larger society reject it ... I might advocate for laws against it. The belief might be so reprehensible there should be laws against even voicing it. But I cannot deny that human the right to form the belief - either practically nor even morally. That goes to essence of human freedom.
Outside that, we then enter onto the slippery slope of what are and are not objectionable beliefs.
As for the HELL, no ... it drives me to spend too much time here and write too many words.
One of the basic ideas of the Constitution is that (1) Presidents don't make the laws, and (2) certain powers - including Power of the Purse - are reserved for the Congress.
With this "national emergency," you conservatives support your guy just bypassing Congress altogether and implementing his policies (which he couldn't get support through Congress) via royal decree.
That's basically called a dictatorship. Might as well disband Congress and just annoint Donald as King.
If you're for this stuff, then you're opposed to the spirit and concept of the Constitution.
Obama bypassed the Constitution by forcing people to buy his crappy healthcare product or get punished with a heavy fine. He also created a law that allows the government to detain you without trial indefinitely!
If Trump is teaching as you describe (and I'm inclined to notice the same sort of thing), then those who can't see the same thing are also part of the problem! Not sure what you mean by a "so-called objective fact." Either it's a fact or it's not, and of course it is wrong to deny facts! Hello?
Definition of fact
1a : something that has actual existence
b : an actual occurrence
Problem is not only the denial of facts, however. There is also the understanding of facts, processing facts, the challenge of critical thinking!
Fact is the rooster crows in the morning and the fact is the Sun rises in the morning, but it's wrong to conclude from these facts that the rooster causes the Sun to rise. Very important not to draw the wrong conclusions from the facts, let alone be swayed by the sort of propaganda, misrepresentation of facts and flat out lies that Trump feeds to his similarly undiscerning supporters. That's okay? Oh HELL no!
Until the rooster crows tomorrow...
A few more minutes ... I used the words "so-called objective fact" because in some circumstances the absolute can be hard to establish. Outside of the rooster causing the sun to rise, one at least knows in the absolute that the rooster did crow and the sun did rise. Empirically that is.
That this is a constitutional issue might per some analyses lead to an examination of whether or not there is, in fact, a crisis with much depending on an examination of statistical data. A disputed "fact" - that that 90% of drugs enter thru ports. Now Trump does not appear to dispute the fact that the DEA made that estimate, or maybe he even goes there? But he does dispute the number. I actually spent some time looking over reports trying its validity.
This a process that the President of the United States does follow for policy, but even goes further to discredit his own government data. That he does this is profoundly not okay. More, these threads are full of talking points where the issue does not match the data they are paired to. There is something disillusioning about delving into the details only to watch so-called responsible government officials mislead. But again I tend to fault those who produce the distorted talking points more than those who consume them.
Why? Because even the decision to delve into data or reports itself becomes a form of confirmation bias. Time is limited. Trump (to me) has not demonstrated integrity instead decreasing the trust factor. Obama earned more good-will trust. Those are entirely subjective judgments that are themselves open to question. Only Trump knows the thought-process that leads him to spout what he does. His listeners do not.
Now you might say that even a halfway discriminating listener should be able to object to much of what we hear. That there might be no need for more than critical judgment. Personally, I agree. Why is what is clear to me cannot be to others? However, once again I would hesitate about applying some firm judgment to the opinions of others.
Where were we? Back to your original post ... how and why we waste our time may be driven by multiple impulses ... but we agree this is about more than the wall.
Last edited by EveryLady; 02-20-2019 at 02:32 PM..
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