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Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM
Status: "JESUS CHRIST IS LORD" (set 14 days ago)
 
5,460 posts, read 1,113,651 times
Reputation: 3042

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Quote:
Originally Posted by roboteer View Post
wow, that's almost as reliable as "according to cnn"!
Shoot. If I'd read your post before replying above I'd have just dittoed you.
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Old Yesterday, 09:03 PM
 
7,402 posts, read 2,689,336 times
Reputation: 2931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
Wow, that's almost as reliable as "According to CNN"!
Well to be honest that is a step above then "According to Fox News"
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM
 
39,712 posts, read 41,077,500 times
Reputation: 16431
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru5555 View Post
No single company will ever control the entirety of the internet.....that’s simply not how the “underlying infrastructure” operates or is designed.

https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/


You are correct but these tech giants are in control of significant amount of it and it's increasing.


Quote:
The end user has a vast choice in search engines, social-media providers, and service providers, on top of the most basic choice to not use it at all.
Look, as I already noted having a bureaucrat decide what a site can censor is a very dangerous path and in all cases unworkable. We cannot however look past the issue of the control these larger companies have. The CEO of Cloudflare has excellent blog post on it after they terminated their services for the Daily Stormer.

Quote:
Increasing Dependence On A Few Giant Networks

In a not-so-distant future, if we're not there already, it may be that if you're going to put content on the Internet you'll need to use a company with a giant network like Cloudflare, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, or Alibaba.

For context, Cloudflare currently handles around 10% of Internet requests.

Without a clear framework as a guide for content regulation, a small number of companies will largely determine what can and cannot be online.
They just recently terminated the services for 8chan, these are the only two sites I'm aware of they have acted on. Without the services of company like Cloudflare it's impossible for you to run a controversial site. Cloudflare and the handful of companies like Google that provide similar services to non profits and media organizations are in the drivers seat.
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Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM
 
Location: AZ
2,142 posts, read 451,373 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/


You are correct but these tech giants are in control of significant amount of it and it's increasing.





Look, as I already noted having a bureaucrat decide what a site can censor is a very dangerous path and in all cases unworkable. We cannot however look past the issue of the control these larger companies have. The CEO of Cloudflare has excellent blog post on it after they terminated their services for the Daily Stormer.
They do not have “control” whatsoever, as that’s simply not how the internet works.

The end user is ultimately in control of what they consume, and which service provider they choose to access said information. Which is also to say that site-owners are free to choose their hosting provider, from which thousands of options exist.

Furthermore, they can easily choose not to use social-media; after all, people and society existed prior to the creation of the (de-centralized) internet.
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Old Yesterday, 09:20 PM
 
Location: United States
10,997 posts, read 5,115,774 times
Reputation: 5269
Lets recap for those just joining this thread.

One of the anti-Trump posters creates a thread with an absolutely ridiculous thread title, based on a story of allegedly leaked documents of a draft of an Executive Order.

None of the articles making these claims provides a copy of the alleged EO.

Instead they make claims of the internet being censored.

They then suggest that the EO will clarify the laws that pertain to the companies censorship, and suppression of content.

So to sum this up.

None of the articles are actually claiming that the Trump administration will censor the internet.

If you are now thinking that this entire thread is an absurd waste of time, and bandwidth, you would be correct.
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Old Yesterday, 09:30 PM
 
39,712 posts, read 41,077,500 times
Reputation: 16431
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru5555 View Post

The end user is ultimately in control of what they consume,

If you are running a site susceptible to DDOS attack your user will not be able to reach your site unless you have some very deep pockets or utilize services from these major tech companies. A hosting provider that advertises "DDOS protection" has very limited capabilities for this.







This is just from smaller site I run and this was sustained over 7 days, on average over the entire 24 hour period 2200 request per second. Side not of something interesting, The IP's were mostly Asian, what you are seeing as the requests rise is people waking up in the morning and turning their compromised computers on.
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Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM
 
Location: AZ
2,142 posts, read 451,373 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
If you are running a site susceptible to DDOS attack your user will not be able to reach your site unless you have some very deep pockets or utilize services from these major tech companies. A hosting provider that advertises "DDOS protection" has very limited capabilities for this.







This is just from smaller site I run and this was sustained over 7 days, on average over the entire 24 hour period 2200 request per second. Side not of something interesting, The IP's were mostly Asian, what you are seeing as the requests rise is people waking up in the morning and turning their compromised computers on.
I’m sorry but having a denial of service attack has very little to do with the provider; however I won’t deny that some offer better infrastructure and protection against the attack than others, but rest-assured, any site can be brought down with enough resources.

That hardly proves (as in it does not prove) that one is required to have hosting from a “popular” provider in order to reach the masses.


You can still experience downtime with *any hosting service*.

If you’re really concerned, setup hosting with a backup provider and configure failover.....
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Old Yesterday, 09:49 PM
 
39,712 posts, read 41,077,500 times
Reputation: 16431
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru5555 View Post
I’m sorry but having a denial of service attack has very little to do with the provider;.

It does when they control an ever increasing amount of the underlying infrastructure. Google for example will provide this service for free to news organizations.


Quote:
any site can be brought down with enough resources.
If you have set up Cloudflare correctly that becomes pretty difficult. It requires significant server configuration, for example you firewall ports 443 and 80 off except Cloudflare IP's. If I gave you the IP and you edited hosts file... "Server not found". You need to remove any possibility of obtaining the IP, the mail server cannot be on same IP. Remove any web application software that can expose it like upload an avatar from URL etc.



Quote:
That hardly proves (as in it does not prove) that one is required to have hosting from a “popular” provider in order to reach the masses.
Hosts even if they are advertising "DDOS protection" habe very limited ability to handle this. If you have the paid plan on Cloudflare they guarantee to stand behind your site regardless of the length or size of the attack. No host can offer that because they do not have the enormous global infrastructure required to do it.



Quote:
If you’re really concerned, setup hosting with a backup provider and configure failover....
Failover will not protect against DDOS because you would just be routing the traffic to failover server.
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Old Yesterday, 09:58 PM
 
Location: AZ
2,142 posts, read 451,373 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
It does when they control an ever increasing amount of the underlying infrastructure. Google for example will provide this service for free to news organizations.



If you have set up Cloudflare correctly that becomes pretty difficult. It requires significant server configuration, for example you firewall ports 443 and 80 off except Cloudflare IP's. If I gave you the IP and you edited hosts file... "Server not found". You need to remove any possibility of obtaining the IP, the mail server cannot be on same IP. Remove any web application software that can expose it like upload an avatar from URL etc.




Hosts even if they are advertising "DDOS protection" habe very limited ability to handle this. If you have the paid plan on Cloudflare they guarantee to stand behind your site regardless of the length or size of the attack. No host can offer that because they do not have the enormous global infrastructure required to do it.




Failover will not protect against DDOS because you would just be routing the traffic to failover server.
Prove that “they control an ever increasing amount of the underlying infrastructure”; I keep hearing this right-wing talking-point without any credible evidence to back it up.

And frankly, CloudFare and it’s configuration nor it’s services have any impact on this discussion.

Failover can protect you against DDOS; look into something called a “DDOS failover provider”:

Quote:
Another option is to utilize a DDoS failover provider. When ingress bandwidth exceeds a certain level, or certain patterns that can indicate a DDoS attack are indicated, the failover provider immediately initiates the cutover of network connectivity through their systems. This can occur on several levels, from cutting over the circuit to implementing immediate DNS changes with extremely short time-to-live (TTL) values. With this type of solution, the mitigation service provider is typically looking to sustain the network for only as long as the attack lasts, and usually provides a command center environment to inform customers of the attack's status over time.
https://www.rsaconference.com/blogs/...-do-about-them


Long-story short, it is *highly disingenuous* to claim that someone like CloudFare or Google “control” the internet’s “underlying infrastructure” because of some features they offer for hosting.
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Old Yesterday, 10:33 PM
 
39,712 posts, read 41,077,500 times
Reputation: 16431
Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru5555 View Post
Prove that “they control an ever increasing amount of the underlying infrastructure”;

This is the opinion of the CEO of Cloudflare, a company that controls 10% of the Internet's traffic. He probably knows a little bit more about it that you or I, yes?



Quote:
And frankly, CloudFare and it’s configuration nor it’s services have any impact on this discussion.

Clouddflare is just one example of a large tech company that through their network infrastructure controls a very large part of the internent. Other examples include Google, Amazon.


Quote:
Failover can protect you against DDOS; look into something called a “DDOS failover provider”:

To prevent DDOS you need to protect the origin IP, if you have the origin IP listed in DNS all traffic will be routed to that IP. Switching it to fail over server on the hosts network or anywhere else accomplishes very little given the scale and length of these attacks. If you have boatloads of cash to just handle the traffic sure you can do it. Changing the IP requires propagation which can take hours to days and it's still exposed to the attacker anyway.



When you are utilizing Cloudflare the public DNS listing is their IP, they have global network and can stop these attacks before it even gets to this country let alone to your server. At most your users may see minor 10 second interruption every few hours as Cloudflare screens the traffic. If for any reason the origin IP becomes compromised the attacker can circumvent Cloudflare and directly attack the IP which you then need to null route. When you are able to determine how it was compromised you only need to switch the IP of the machine, login into Cloudflare and point it new IP. There is no wait for propagation, you are right back in business.
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