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I really cant imagine what it must be like to go through life with such an ingrained chip on your shoulder. The us vs them attitude. So a serious question here tom, you really think that an employee should not have to obey the rules of it's employer? You keep throwing the cheap and obediant phrase out there ? Also, what you obviously fail to understand is I have the flexibility to do all kinds of things for my employees that do well, my guy's would tell you to go pound sand if you came and tried to sell them the union deal!
If you are a good employer, there is not a need for union, but if you are not, it is not unreasonable to expect people to look after their own interests and organize to ensure fair treatment. the industries that typically need unions are industries where workers rights were not taken into consideration or where the government (Reagan admin) requires at arms length negotiations for government contract workers.
It's always so disheartening to read the anti-union comments from the typical Republican poster. Not being able to see the benefits of organized labor in every American's life is being pathetically blind & acting contrary to the individual's self-worth.
All this, "I'll do it on my own" entrepreneurialism is still alive in the U.S. but barely & beaten down each day a Bush opens more enterprise outside America [Bush=Saudi romance]
So when a struggling middle-class Republican votes down self-benefits/protections it become quite evident that the person is out of the mainstream of thinking people [and should be ignored or urged to get an education or get into therapy asap].
Working people need to realize that they as individuals are not guaranteed a life time employment at the job they are working at. Union or NO Union. What if management decides that they have to close down for 30 days for whatever reason they so chose. What are the people going to do, SUE?. They do not have a liftime contract guaranteeing a job and paycheck every week. Their are many out in the work field who think that way. Imagine what happens on Payday/Friday when some are handed a PINK slip of LAYOFF. This does happen, especially nowadays with the RECESSION showing its BIG UGLY HEAD. Stop and think who/what are the main causes. Steve
Working people need to realize that they as individuals are not guaranteed a life time employment at the job they are working at. Union or NO Union. What if management decides that they have to close down for 30 days for whatever reason they so chose. What are the people going to do, SUE?. They do not have a liftime contract guaranteeing a job and paycheck every week. Their are many out in the work field who think that way. Imagine what happens on Payday/Friday when some are handed a PINK slip of LAYOFF. This does happen, especially nowadays with the RECESSION showing its BIG UGLY HEAD. Stop and think who/what are the main causes. Steve
They always did, don't you get it. The union's helped people through the lean times and virtually guaranteed the steel that qualified and experienced workers would be available. they managed the layoffs, they worked the problems, I had all kinds of relatives who would go from the steel to the construction jobs as the season changed, and everyone did very well by it. I think management has to learn that people are not always going to be sitting around waiting for you to throw crumbs either. I work in an industry where I routinely turn down work and the owners go begging.
In regards to union and organizing, i tend to really believe that legal citizens need to organize against the fed-gov't around the principle that taxes on labor is unconstitutional. If we could all fall through with that, we'd be in good shape instead of belittling one another over whether a union is good or not. (moot point nowadays - IMHO) Get the McDonalds, Wal-Marts, and other businesses big and small "organized".
U.A.W worker here, by the way! The Detroit auto-makers management really did screw things up. I'd tell you plenty of stories on what goes on, but it does nothing for anyone. It's better to just sell-out the lowly line worker, makes for a better story as the public media seems to agree. (a shame..)
Ironic labor isn't respected in this country, especially when most of Americans' backs built this country. This is the greatest country, right?! There's more respect for business owners in this country which is a shame - see tax codes.
Last edited by Blue Grass Fever; 07-06-2008 at 07:21 AM..
I really cant imagine what it must be like to go through life with such an ingrained chip on your shoulder. The us vs them attitude. So a serious question here tom, you really think that an employee should not have to obey the rules of it's employer? You keep throwing the cheap and obediant phrase out there ? Also, what you obviously fail to understand is I have the flexibility to do all kinds of things for my employees that do well, my guy's would tell you to go pound sand if you came and tried to sell them the union deal!
It's an us vs. them world Silas, you know that. Little is gained without struggle.
An employee should all obey all the rules he has NEGOTIATED with his employer.
So maybe you're a good guy to work for, that's swell. But many people aren't good to work for, you know that.
Are your employees gonna retire as I did at 55 with a pension they control paying them equal to working 40 hours a week? If they don't I think they need a good union.
i feel that my comments to you were too personal. for that i apologize.
getting back to the topic. i feel that unions provide a level playing field. i feel with 23 million illegal immigrants and a non union invironment the ground is ripe for injustices in the work place.
No worries, your attempt to honestly explain yourself shows you are more interested in getting your point across than trying to hide it. I apologize for coming down on you so hard, its just that there are so many on these boards that resort to logical fallacies, rather than attempting to have themselves understood or understanding another.
Unions are a healthy ideal, I agree with what they "intend", but just as you describe how there are abuses without them, there are also many abuses with them. Which is really my point. In the end, no organization or system will solve the problems if all of the people (on both sides) are corrupt in their pursuits.
I really cant imagine what it must be like to go through life with such an ingrained chip on your shoulder. The us vs them attitude. So a serious question here tom, you really think that an employee should not have to obey the rules of it's employer? You keep throwing the cheap and obediant phrase out there ? Also, what you obviously fail to understand is I have the flexibility to do all kinds of things for my employees that do well, my guy's would tell you to go pound sand if you came and tried to sell them the union deal!
If business had ever been trustworthy, you union-buster types out there, the whole idea of unions never would have been necessary. The brave decisions to unionize and the hard-fought-for successes nonunion employees enjoy as a result (hint: the eight hour day, overtime, seniority, pensions, weekends) are a reaction to the evils of capitalism unchecked, a return to which we're seeing now in globalization of production.
I agree that unions as they are now, and have been for a long time, have got to change - IMO entirely reworked legally from the ground up. But never say workers should be denied the right to protect themselves, or - silas77 - assume that your workers like being unprotected, or truly trust you, or appreciate that the food on their table depends on whether they "obey" you and your whims. (I also like that you say "an employee...its employer" in the post that Irishtom quotes above)
It's an us vs. them world Silas, you know that. Little is gained without struggle.
An employee should all obey all the rules he has NEGOTIATED with his employer.
So maybe you're a good guy to work for, that's swell. But many people aren't good to work for, you know that.
Are your employees gonna retire as I did at 55 with a pension they control paying them equal to working 40 hours a week? If they don't I think they need a good union.
Yeah, well it seems to keep the democrat party in business! I find that a less adversarial relationship between employee and employer, is much more productive and beneficial for both! All I can do is laugh at your second statement. " Mr employer, I realize that YOU have hung everything out there and taken all the risk and carry all the liability for this business that provides me with a good income, but we need to negotiate how things are going to work around here". Yeah, right after you take a drug test, cause I know you gotta be smokin something! Well Iguess you at least identified a solution to our social security dilema, sounds like you wont need it!
If business had ever been trustworthy, you union-buster types out there, the whole idea of unions never would have been necessary. The brave decisions to unionize and the hard-fought-for successes nonunion employees enjoy as a result (hint: the eight hour day, overtime, seniority, pensions, weekends) are a reaction to the evils of capitalism unchecked, a return to which we're seeing now in globalization of production.
I agree that unions as they are now, and have been for a long time, have got to change - IMO entirely reworked legally from the ground up. But never say workers should be denied the right to protect themselves, or - silas77 - assume that your workers like being unprotected, or truly trust you, or appreciate that the food on their table depends on whether they "obey" you and your whims. (I also like that you say "an employee...its employer" in the post that Irishtom quotes above)
We are a long way away from the days when unions were formed and actually served a good purpose , let's not live in the past. You guy's really are a hoot with all your "evils of capitalism", "obey you and your whims", lot a drama! I have been in the work world for over 30 years now, and I am about as defiant, stubborn and anti-authority as you can get, in those 30 years I never worked for one place for more than 5 years, been hired,fired, rehired, quit, layed off, pissed off, disagreed with more boss's than I agreed with, but I never once thought that I was entitled to more than an honest day's wages for an honest days work,maybe the differences, is I never looked at myself as a VICTIM, I never had trouble finding another job on my own or thought that I needed to pay some slacker leach fatcat dues so he could "look out for me"(1979, Carter era was pretty tough). Always kept the frame of mind "that which does not kill me makes me stronger", everytime I got fired or quit, I knew that a better opportunity would come along! The reason unions have become synonomous with the democrat party is, they both promote the victim status, they indoctrinate people with GREED, you DESERVE more you are ENTITLED to more, but you cant do it for you're self, you NEED us, to help you, to look out for you , to hold you're hand and care for you, to defend you, to think for you.........but it will cost you and everyother American!
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Yeah, right after you take a drug test, cause I know you gotta be smokin something!
Well Iguess you at least identified a solution to our social security dilema, sounds like you wont need it!
