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You know what I think. I think if somebody wants to display the confederate flag on their property and they are not shoving it into a black person's face, they should have every right to do it.
They do have the right. That's one of the odd things about American history, that the symbols of a rebellion dedicated to slavery are protected by the ideals of those who suppressed the rebellion.
They do have the right. That's one of the odd things about American history, that the symbols of a rebellion dedicated to slavery are protected by the ideals of those who suppressed the rebellion.
C'mon, IT...how many times does this "rebellion" and "treason" thing you keep bringing up have to be refuted by the very words of those who might even have wanted to make the charge stick?
Chief Justice Salmon Chase to Edwin Stanton:
"If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His (Jefferson Davis') capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason. Secession is settled, let it stay settled."
With that said though, I gotta grudingly and respectfully admit you do a good job of making your case, even if (IMHO) it spins history and words.
But there is nothing odd about it. For instance, (in addition to the totally refuted "treason" charge) the seeming implication that the ideals of those who fought for the Confederacy are at odds with First Amendment rights. Southern men largely wrote the Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. And when the Southern states formed their own nation, all of this was strongly expressed in its own Constitution.
I could just as easily toss out something like, and it would have the inexact same relevance, as: The First Amendment still exists because a disproportionate number of Southern men/women have always protected it; including the right some to feel superior and disdain us and the way we feel about our history and heritage.
Almost finished, but I always thought this resolution said a lot. In support of the Confederate Battle Flag by the decendants of those who fought against it...
Finally, here is a link which covers just about all that can be said on this topic. I had some extremely heated arguments on it, but also came to respect, very much, some on the opposite side of this question.
I personally could care less. If we aren't talking about a hate group using it as a racist symbol and/or threatening people with it, than whatever floats your boat.
C'mon, IT...how many times does this "rebellion" and "treason" thing you keep bringing up have to be refuted by the very words of those who might even have wanted to make the charge stick?
I wrote a big thing and posted but decided to delete, we've had this fight enough over the meaning of treason and rebellion enough.
I'm sure you're aware that in the south prior to the Civil War many people had their First Ammendment rights trampled on by local government when they spoke against slavery.
Last edited by Irishtom29; 07-11-2008 at 05:37 PM..
My gut reaction is that it represents racism and hate, but I do know that there are proud southerners who display their confederate flags due to their pride in their heritage and their birthplace and that it has nothing to due, in their minds, with racism.
My gut reaction is that it represents racism and hate, but I do know that there are proud southerners who display their confederate flags due to their pride in their heritage and their birthplace and that it has nothing to due, in their minds, with racism.
True enough and to some people it's simply a symbol of a rebellious nature and attitude, kind of a way of giving the finger to bourgeois society.
I'm sure you're aware that in the south prior to the Civil War many people had their First Ammendment rights trampled on by local government when they spoke against slavery.
Sorry, but that is NOT a good example to make your case!
For one thing, public opinion which might silence minority opinion in a given locale is NOT a violation of First Amendment rights in the same way as official decree or martial law. I could turn your case back into saying that Southern sympathizers in certain lower parts of the Midwest had their "rights" trampled on" when they were run out of town or whatever...
Point being that failure and/or fear to speak up because one might get beat up or shunned is NOT the same as having such speech subject to official arrest. And that is exactly what happened under the Lincoln administration.
True enough and to some people it's simply a symbol of a rebellious nature and attitude
Kinda like the American colonists at the Boston Tea Party? Or Patrick Henry when he said "If this be treason, make the most of it"?
General Robert E. Lee once said: "All that the South has ever desired was that the Union--as established by our forefathers--should be preserved, and that the government--as originally organized--should be administered in purity and truth."
I don't bring that up in a sense of "one-up"...but rather to give a side to it that so many non-Southerners never hear. Just as they don't the ugly history of slavery in the North.
I honestly DO think I speak for many Southerners in saying all we really want is tolerance to work both ways.... .
Sorry, but that is NOT a good example to make your case!
For one thing, public opinion which might silence minority opinion in a given locale is NOT a violation of First Amendment rights in the same way as official decree or martial law. I could turn your case back into saying that Southern sympathizers in certain lower parts of the Midwest had their "rights" trampled on" when they were run out of town or whatever...
I said local government not public opinion. Note that many southern postmasters refused to send abolitionist newspapers through the mails too.
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