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Teenagers definitely need to be required to have parental permission before getting an abortion. Too many times, a girl will get pregnant, then go get an abortion so her parents don't find out shes pregnant. That is so unfortunate.
Yes, it is unfortunate. But so much less unfortunate than the alternatives. Face it. In intact and healthy families, there is no need for a law, and in others, there is no sense to one.
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Originally Posted by bchris02
Also, partial birth abortion is the sickest, most vile procedure ever done by man, and Obama thinks its a good thing that should be protected.
Your knowledge of the procedure seems particularly single-sourced. You should perhaps do more extensive research before risking the broadcast of baseless pronouncements.
While I haven't made either argument, I suspect that you distort the arguments actually made. A fetus is comparable to a tapeworm in terms of its parasitic dependency. That is a simple fact. Nearly half of all conceptions consummated do result in spontaneous abortion that often is expressed in menses. This is also a simple fact. Dealing with simple facts is the object. Denying them is merely a dodge.
So is denying your own arguments. Why try to draw a line from fetus to nail clippings in the first place? What where you attempting to say if not they were alike? You tell me, you brought it up in the first place.
Because you have not evidenced in your characterizations of a fetus an understanding of its entirely primitive nature at the gestational ages when the large majority of all abortions are elected. The common use of terms such as "baby" and "unborn child" for a fetus represents an emotional projection onto a fetus of characteristics that it simply does not have.
And when I have used the term baby or unborn child in this discussion?
No. The sinus rhythm of an adult is the product of a fully developed and highly organized autonomic nervous system. Fetuses have no such thing.
You can control your heatbeat? I don't mean speeding it up by running or slowing it down by meditation...I mean, can you sit in your chair and consciencely make the decision that your heart will beat precisely 48 beats in the next minute? No, you can't. It may be a highly developed instinctual response, but one not in your control.
Good enough on the nomenclature. Would that the rest was at the same level.
Obviously not, the obvious part arising from the fact that no post of mine (or that I can recall, of anyone else) has suggested such a thing. You are grasping at some straws here.
Really? so at what point does the fetus develop into an autonomus individual?
See the earlier post concerning "bright lines" and consider that you in fact seek to draw one at 12 weeks. The endeavor is futile.
You wish for an abortion free for all, the vast majority see a need for common decency in this debate.
A priori, no, there should not be such guidelines at all, as there is every reason to believe that these would simply be hijacked by extremists as a repository for the establishment of religious dogma and as a device by which to abrogate a woman's rights. Why would anyone support such a proposal as that? How is this not to be seen as a simple bait-and-switch operation, whereunder the noble sounding word "ethics" is ultimately to be swapped out for the much less than noble concept of "repressive dogma"?
I am an agnostic, I don't for anyones religious dogma. But keeping abortion available up to birth for any reason whatsoever doesn't protect abortion from eventual illegalization.....it promotes it as a movement so out of sync with most americans that the pro choice movement becames tainted by its association with partial birth abortion. It becomes not a movement of choice and womens rights, but a movement of narcissitic carnage.
On what grounds? Which of the circumstances under which actual late-term abortions are actually performed do you actually object to? Ruling these out as a class would seem a bit extreme, as one of the reasons for performing a late-term abortion is that the fetus has died. Are you so selfish as to believe that the interests of a woman carrying a dead fetus should be made subservient to the self-satisfaction of seeing some set of irrational personal beliefs upheld?
My daughter died in utero at about 21 weeks. I carried her dead body for about a week afterwards till I was admitted to the labor and delivery ward of the hospital. There I labor was induced, I was given an epidural and the next day I delivered my dead daughter. Fun? No. But it was humane, it was in its own way beautiful. My daughters corpse was cremated, a social worker came round to fill out a 'fetal demise' certificate (so apparently the state believes something was alive and died that was autonomus to myself).
So, yes saganista unlike you this is more then a philosophical debate, I am intimately aware of carrying a dying fetus, and I am more then educated on what said fetus looks like (and it is not anything but human). Self satisfaction is seeing women suffering? No. Satisfication in sparing a fetus the pain of its own death...yes.
Teenagers definitely need to be required to have parental permission before getting an abortion. Too many times, a girl will get pregnant, then go get an abortion so her parents don't find out shes pregnant. That is so unfortunate.
Also, partial birth abortion is the sickest, most vile procedure ever done by man, and Obama thinks its a good thing that should be protected.
I did, when I was 16 - didn't tell my parents.
If I didn't have the right to do it without telling my parents, I can guarantee you I would have waited until they noticed rather then telling them, or tried to harm myself to miscarry. You would have had a 2nd trimester abortion rather than a safe, early one - simply because of a parental consent law.
Parental consent laws will lead to more teens having later term abortions.
So is denying your own arguments. Why try to draw a line from fetus to nail clippings in the first place? What where you attempting to say if not they were alike? You tell me, you brought it up in the first place.
For the umpteenth time, the equivalency here is your own, not mine. You have made no case to elevate a fetus over other forms of "human life" that we accord no special status to at all. This is a shortcoming in pro-life arguments in general.
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Originally Posted by camping!
And when I have used the term baby or unborn child in this discussion?
When did the phrase The common use of terms such as... come to refer to you exclusively?
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Originally Posted by camping!
You can control your heatbeat?
Non sequitur. The point was over the difference between the tics detectable as an early fetal heartbeat and the heartbeat of an adult, governed as it is by a fully developed autonomic nervous system -- something that a fetus at the point in question lacks. My ability to set my own pulse rate is not even marginally relevant to the distinction.
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Originally Posted by camping!
Really? so at what point does the fetus develop into an autonomus individual?
Yes, really. There is no post in this thread that equates a 12-week old fetus to a 20-week old fetus or to a 41-week old fetus. There are now several posts however that refer to "bright lines", continuums, and processes. If you'd read them, you'd perhaps have come to understand that the point you are seeking does not exist.
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Originally Posted by camping!
You wish for an abortion free for all, the vast majority see a need for common decency in this debate.
Time for a reality check. I wish for there to be as few abortions as possible. But any decrease will need to come from fewer and fewer women needing to resort to one. Unlike many pro-life people, I would join you in endorsing many of the other programs that you have earlier endorsed, but you do not in any case get to make other people's decisions for them, regardless of whatever you would take common decency to be. To me, common decency would have told you to butt out from where you don't belong. But maybe that's just me.
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Originally Posted by camping!
I am an agnostic.
I don't care if you're an agnostic. Your "strict guidelines in place to make sure that ethical boundaries are not crossed" are an open invitation to hostile takeover by dogmatic zealots and are therefore not to be encouraged or countenanced.
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Originally Posted by camping!
But keeping abortion available up to birth for any reason whatsoever doesn't protect abortion from eventual illegalization.
Yet another straw-man ripped straight from the pages of fundie pro-life webpages all over the internet. There is not now and never has been an availability of abortion up until birth for any reason whatsoever. This is fraud and fabrication, whether yours or someone else's.
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Originally Posted by camping!
...it promotes it as a movement so out of sync with most americans that the pro choice movement becames tainted by its association with partial birth abortion.
Not with intact D&X as it actually is, but rather with the caricature of the procedure dreamed up by a couple of pro-life lobbyists after seeing Jenny Westberg's totally unrealistic cartoons. This is a fake issue promoted for its political potential. Like too many others, you seem to have fallen for the spiel just as those lobbyists hoped you would.
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Originally Posted by camping!
My daughter died in utero at about 21 weeks.
I am aware of these events. You have related them before, and I have previously extended to you my heartfelt condolences for your having had to endure such trying circumstances. They do not however impact upon the issue at hand. You will still have to support your views to the same degree as everyone else.
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Originally Posted by camping!
Self satisfaction is seeing women suffering? No. Satisfication in sparing a fetus the pain of its own death...yes.
Speaking of before, we have discussed the status of so-called fetal pain research before. Specifically, the similarity between much of it and much of the research that supposedly supports creation science. While no one can know with precision what a fetus experiences, it is extremely unlikely that any prior to the third trimester can perceive anything that even remotely resembles what you and I would recognize as the experience of pain. The full complement of neither the hardware nor software necessary for it is yet in place. Even the cry that a newborn emits upon being slapped on the bottom a few seconds after becoming a neonate is not a reaction to pain. This is entirely a startle-response used to initiate independent breathing, and it is entirely analogous to the gasp of air you yourself would instinctively take if I were to sneak up behind you and say "BOO!!!" Appeals to such weakly established theories as that of fetal pain are not going to carry very much weight.
My sisters had two - the second one was aborted due to an unsupporting atmosphere to the child and partly by me so she could continue being a part of my enterprise and carry on making me money. I told her also that if she had the child, I would walk away from her forever.
She had to notion of replacing herself, so she had to stay. This means baby gotta go. However months later, she quit the enterprise, so baby going was a waste of time.
Is abortion murder? If it is, then I'm partly responsible for a homicide!!
We can't have it both ways... exactly. Either we give women a choice to control their own fertility, or we reduce them to breeding machines. If we chose the latter, we don't have any right complaining if they need public assistance. Saying they shouldn't have sex is just silly. How many people here only have sex in order to conceive???? Please do let us know if this is you - you are a rare specimen, indeed. Birth control fails sometimes.
And what about the men? What about all the "Fathers" that leave the women to deal with pregnancy alone, or they take off after the child is here???? Plenty of them don't pay child support. Look in the people search forum how many there are looking for their fathers that they never had a relationship with nor have the mothers received any support....
It's a medical procedure. One developed in part so as to be able to present to parents dealing with a failed pregnancy an intact conceptus. Something they could wrap and hold and grieve over. Something to memorialize and bury if they chose to do so. As it happens, the procedure is the safest and cheapest alternative under various late-term conditions. It should be a matter left to a doctor and patient decision-makers. Not to you or me.
Virtually no elective abortions are peformed in the third trimester. Virtually no patients seek them. Virtually no doctors perform them. Virtually all of them result from extreme conditions of one sort or another that nobody not involved in the situation can imagine or appreciate. Doctors actually involved in these rare and individual cases are in a better position than that.
No woman should be forced to carry to term the product of rape, or incest, or any other means of impregnation against her wishes.
That's all it is. It has no other purpose. All that makes it distinctive is its role as a last line of defense -- the option that comes into play when all other options have failed or would be pointless.
Given such a frightening diagnosis, the choice of treatment again properly belongs between the doctor and patient decision-makers. There are no established grounds for interference on the part of unknowing outsiders.
This is an imaginary class, but care is already mandated under such circumstances, should they ever actually occur. BAIPA efforts meanwhile are a transparent hoax that seeks only to encumber the right of abortion by adding to costs and delays inherent in the procedure.
I could only look forward to the day when that would be true.
Really? Then it should be a simple matter to come up with convincing secular arguments in favor of a particular position. Why are so few of these seen?
I'm going to back away slowly. No sudden movements. You scare the **** out of me.
Almost nothing you stated is accurate yet your so passionate about it. Thats perplexing and terrifying at the same time.
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