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There was a WAR going on over there and the ship- or the USA- had no business sticking its nose in the middle of somebody else's fight. When you stick your snout where it has no business, sometimes you get a bloody nose. If the ship had asked for permission to enter the area from Israel it would not have been attacked.
Kev it was international waters... No permission required. The ship was flying the american flag. No further ID required.
The ship that Israel claimed they mistook the Liberty for bore very little resemblance. Other than it was also gray and had a few masts and some antenna.
International waters means that we don't need an invitation. We definetly should not require an invite from a country that would have fallen long ago were it not for us.
Did the ship ask for permission from Israel to enter that area in a time of war? No it did not. The ship and its commanders were STUPID and should have been killed or relieved of duty in my view. They decided to go in there and "show the flag" and got it shoved up their butts by Israel.
You have lost any respect I had for you with this one post. Should have been killed?????? These are american sailors and 34 of them were killed. Show so damn respect for our fallen sailors. Killed by a less than greatful ally.
International waters...... The world recognizes the right of free passage.
The ship was clearly identifiable by its flag, hull number and well its design. 1 fighter pilot refused to engage because he recognized the flag.....
As a sailor I can tell you its not hard to tell the difference between the USS Liberty and a god damned egyption trawler built by Russia.
Trigger happy comes to mind. But what confounds me as the Liberty kept identifying itself to the attackers why didn't the Israeli's pause for thought?
Did the ship ask for permission from Israel to enter that area in a time of war? No it did not. The ship and its commanders were STUPID and should have been killed or relieved of duty in my view. They decided to go in there and "show the flag" and got it shoved up their butts by Israel.
Relax and take a deep breath, kid.
1. Noncombatant ships from uninvolved parties don't need "permission" to pass through international waters.
2. The "stupid" commander was carrying out his "stupid" assigned mission. That's what military commanders do. Or haven't you ever served in the military?
3. Israel has a rather odd way of showing solidarity with its best ally in the world.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
You have lost any respect I had for you with this one post. Should have been killed?????? These are american sailors and 34 of them were killed. Show so damn respect for our fallen sailors. Killed by a less than greatful ally.
International waters...... The world recognizes the right of free passage.
The ship was clearly identifiable by its flag, hull number and well its design. 1 fighter pilot refused to engage because he recognized the flag.....
As a sailor I can tell you its not hard to tell the difference between the USS Liberty and a god damned egyption trawler built by Russia.
Trigger happy comes to mind. But what confounds me as the Liberty kept identifying itself to the attackers why didn't the Israeli's pause for thought?
I am not talking about the SAILORS. They were just innocent victims in a chess game between commanders of the US military and the IDF. The commanders who ordered that ship in there, unescorted by any other ship and then stood by and watched at that ship was attacked and sent NO aid to it- you gawddamn right they should have been killed. Every gawddamn one of them should have been court martialed and given the death penalty for the murder of 34 American sailors. But as ususal, they get a free pass and people blame it on Israel.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,766,887 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoro
Relax and take a deep breath, kid.
1. Noncombatant ships from uninvolved parties don't need "permission" to pass through international waters.
2. The "stupid" commander was carrying out his "stupid" assigned mission. That's what military commanders do. Or haven't you ever served in the military?
3. Israel has a rather odd way of showing solidarity with its best ally in the world.
If I, as a military commander, order you as a soldier to enter an area I know to be hostile without permission of the countries that are fighting and I send you in there on what I KNOW will most likely be a suicide mission, I am responsible for your death and I would pay for your life with my own life. That is just how I see it.
And YEs, when 2 nations are at war, you don't go in there looking for trouble. Even if it is "international waters", it is also a hot war zone and if you must go through it for some reason, common damn sense would dictate that you get passage permission from both sides so "mistakes" are not made.
Barring that, you send in a whole fleet of ships so that both sides know who you are and that you are not to be messed with while passage is taking place. But these idiot commanders sent in one tiny ship knowing full well what would most likely happen to it. The crew and the ship were "sacrificed" by the US Navy.
I have heard a number of conflicting accounts* of this incident and too many people have an agenda for me to take one side or another.
*Including an Israeli pilot who said he thought it was an American ship and American sailors who said that there were a number of factors that could have lead to a false ID.
I am not talking about the SAILORS. They were just innocent victims in a chess game between commanders of the US military and the IDF. The commanders who ordered that ship in there, unescorted by any other ship and then stood by and watched at that ship was attacked and sent NO aid to it- you gawddamn right they should have been killed. Every gawddamn one of them should have been court martialed and given the death penalty for the murder of 34 American sailors. But as ususal, they get a free pass and people blame it on Israel.
KEV Israel attacked a US Naval ship flying the US flag That Identified itself to the attackers..... As for US commanders not responding? That be due to LBG and Mr Macnamara. Who not once but twice ordered our ships not to engage. Who ordered a recall on planes scrambled from our aircraft carrier that were sent to assist. Your right LBJ and Macnamara should have been shot for what they did.
LBJ's words " I don't care if every sailor on that ship drowns we will not attack Israel"
But lets talk about why Israel felt so threatened by an unarmed auxilery.
Uhmmmmm uhmmmmm uhmmmm Well really there was no threat. So why such a brutal prolonged attack? Against an unarmed ship? Do you see a trend here? Its called over kill. They over killed on our ship who had every right to sail in international waters. It wasn't escorted because that is an international right and it is reasonable to expect our ally to abide by International sea laws. It is even more reasonable to expect our good friend and ally Israel to know the difference between an Egyption flag and an American flag. It is also reasonable that if the target in question is unidentifiable and poses no threat to simply send a patrol boat out to identify it.
The only problem with Israels side of the story is that have changed it so many times to counter the actual facts.
They are guilty of slaughtering 34 US sailors. They are guilty of attacking a ship in international waters. They are guilty of poor judgment. And they are not the least bit apologetic about it... They are only sorry that they got caught.
Sorry Kev The word of the captain of that ship carries more weight with me than 1000 israeli spin doctors any day of the week. The word of the crew means more to me than any lie Israel can think up. Why? Because they are fellow americans.
If I, as a military commander, order you as a soldier to enter an area I know to be hostile without permission of the countries that are fighting and I send you in there on what I KNOW will most likely be a suicide mission, I am responsible for your death and I would pay for your life with my own life. That is just how I see it.
And YEs, when 2 nations are at war, you don't go in there looking for trouble. Even if it is "international waters", it is also a hot war zone and if you must go through it for some reason, common damn sense would dictate that you get passage permission from both sides so "mistakes" are not made.
Barring that, you send in a whole fleet of ships so that both sides know who you are and that you are not to be messed with while passage is taking place. But these idiot commanders sent in one tiny ship knowing full well what would most likely happen to it. The crew and the ship were "sacrificed" by the US Navy.
Wrong answer yet again. It was flying our flag. That is all the ID Israel orany other nation for that matter should require. It did not resemble an egyption trawler. It posed no imeadiete threat. Israel should have taken the time to get a possitive ID. Over kill is what they do best and this was no exception.
Please Kev don't try to tell this sailor how hard it is to ID a ship. Its what I did for a living.
Look at the pictures kev. Can you see the american flag? I can.... And right where its supposed to be. Oh and Kev Egyptian ships are not even the same shade of grey as our ships. They don't paint the hull numbers in the same place. And that class of ship never cruised at greater than 20 knots even though the Israeli's claimed to have tracked it doing 28 knots.
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