Traditional Values and Conservatives (minimum wage, poll, Barack Obama, speech)
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It would seem to me that most people have no concept of what Conservative is. To me, Conservatism is maintaining and capitalizing on the ideas our founding fathers instilled about how a government and economy should function
One problem with your call to the Founding Fathers is that the conservatives of their day were the Tories---the Americans loyal to King and Crown who fought for Britian.
Another is your assumption that the Founding Fathers agreed on their ideas about how government and economy should function, they were no more of one mind then than we are today.
The meanings of "liberal" and "conservative" have both radically shifted in the past two centuries. There was a time when "liberal" meant something better than trying to grab your neighbor's paycheck and "conservative" meant something better than Strangelovean war-worship, but those days seem to be past.
Since the OP asks about conservatism, let me say this: conservative philosophy as practiced by Burke and Hamilton represented a sort of prudent rebuke to deveotees of the French Revolution (for instance.) Conservatives believed in respect for precedent and tradition, incremental change, and distrusted quick-fix or radical solutions to problems. Today, people who identify as "conservative" are usually those for whom no solution is ever radical enough, especially in the areas of crime and foreign policy. Dismantling a social safety net that's existed for 70 years is not "conservative" in the original sense either, even if you believe it shouldn't have been set up to begin with. Basically the word "conservative" has been appropriated by radical reactionaries.
Such a state of affairs illustrates why, a few years ago, Al Franken remarked that the Democrats were now both the more liberal and the more conservative party in the United States.
As someone who holds conservative values I look at life like this: pull your weight.
And....that really is about it. If everyone pulled their weight, life would be better for everyone. There would be less government intrusion, people would be able to keep more of the money they earned, social problems would cease if more people worked hard whether it be at school or at a job..
Pull your weight? Are you serious? People used to pull their weight right into early graves thanks to mine explosions, factory fires, job site accidents and asbestosis and black and brown lung disease.
People used to pull their weight for barely enough food to keep going and lived in disease ridden tenaments. People pulled their weight for pitiful wages with no pensions and protections.
People pulled their weight until they were worn down, worked out and burned out. People can be worked to death, the guy who said hard work never killed anyone was probably the boss.
Meanwhile the conservatives didn't give damn. It was the liberals who gave Americans higher wages and better and safer working and living conditions.
Then we had another little institution American conservatives were fond of called slavery---people pulled their weight there, oh yeah you can bet they pulled their weight, that or the lash.
One problem with your call to the Founding Fathers is that the conservatives of their day were the Tories---the Americans loyal to King and Crown who fought for Britian.
That's too simple to be quite accurate. The Americans, before the Revolution, were calling on the King to quash the prerogatives of the Parliament in the colonies. That would've been a highly illiberal act, and George III was committed to constitutional government, as he saw it contrasted with the absolute monarchy of France.
Some British Tories, most famously Edmund Burke, opposed war with the colonies.
1. Why is it bunk? You'd say granting women the right to vote was a traditionalist idea for that time period? If it wasn't liberal then what was it. Same for civil rights?
2. I'm not saying conservatives are racists or only tow the party line. I was speaking on specific conservatives that believe in traditional values.
3.) Fair enough...but what does that have to do with my question? It doesn't make traditionalists any more progressive in same-sex marriage laws.
Back then there wasn't such a thing as "liberal." The whole nation was pretty much in a state of traditional values. Even some of the founders were anti-slavery, and still very much into traditional values. This nation was founded on traditional and religious values.
The "right" for women to vote was passed by a society that was very much comprised of the traditionalists of the time, and passed simply because of Constitutional law. The same can be said of the Civil Rights.
See, my point is that your "traditional" versus "progressive" is not a black and white thing. Every person is conservative in some issues, while liberal in others. For example, the great majority of Americans are religious to one point or another, which puts them on the conservative side. However, every four years (elections) the people are divided: one side goes Democrat and the other Republican, with a whole bunch of others switching back and forth at will.
Back then there wasn't such a thing as "liberal." The whole nation was pretty much in a state of traditional values. Even some of the founders were anti-slavery, and still very much into traditional values. This nation was founded on traditional and religious values.
The "right" for women to vote was passed by a society that was very much comprised of the traditionalists of the time, and passed simply because of Constitutional law. The same can be said of the Civil Rights.
See, my point is that your "traditional" versus "progressive" is not a black and white thing. Every person is conservative in some issues, while liberal in others. For example, the great majority of Americans are religious to one point or another, which puts them on the conservative side. However, every four years (elections) the people are divided: one side goes Democrat and the other Republican, with a whole bunch of others switching back and forth at will.
You're correct in that it's not a black and white subject matter and many people are like you said... "traditional" in some ideas and "progressive" in others.
I still think the progressive ideas with workers rights, voting rights, civil rights, etc. were more beneficial to society than their respective traditional counter-arguments.
One problem with your call to the Founding Fathers is that the conservatives of their day were the Tories---the Americans loyal to King and Crown who fought for Britian.
What does that have to do with anything? Compared to today's values, the Founding Fathers were quite Conservative (actually more Libertarian).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Another is your assumption that the Founding Fathers agreed on their ideas about how government and economy should function, they were no more of one mind then than we are today.
Apparently they reached some sort of compromise. Else we wouldn't be here today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Pull your weight? Are you serious? People used to pull their weight right into early graves thanks to mine explosions, factory fires, job site accidents and asbestosis and black and brown lung disease.
So are you suggesting that instead of working, we should all stay at home and suck up SS benefits without lifting a finger. Sounds good to me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
People used to pull their weight for barely enough food to keep going and lived in disease ridden tenaments. People pulled their weight for pitiful wages with no pensions and protections.
Still not seeing the point here.. I thought this topic was about "Traditional Vlues and Conservatives" or something like that..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
People pulled their weight until they were worn down, worked out and burned out. People can be worked to death, the guy who said hard work never killed anyone was probably the boss.
Still not point..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Meanwhile the conservatives didn't give damn. It was the liberals who gave Americans higher wages and better and safer working and living conditions.
Ah, so here is the punch line.. Yes, Conservatives didn't care about their jobs, wages, or benefits You are a bright one, aren't you? Liberals did not give Americans higher wages and better/safer working environments or living conditions. That is far from the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Then we had another little institution American conservatives were fond of called slavery---people pulled their weight there, oh yeah you can bet they pulled their weight, that or the lash.
I still am not seeing the point of what you have posted. You seem to be declaring that working is not required, and that everything should be provided for us with no effort.
Please return when you have a respectable argument.
You're correct in that it's not a black and white subject matter and many people are like you said... "traditional" in some ideas and "progressive" in others.
I still think the progressive ideas with workers rights, voting rights, civil rights, etc. were more beneficial to society than their respective traditional counter-arguments.
I think that I am beginning to understand where you are coming from.
However, unlike today, back then our nation was in fact comprised of peoples of traditional beliefs. The Constitution and it's amendments is the base of any rights we may have attained through the years, not "progressive" ideals. Once the members of the three branches of government thought long enough about following the Constitution, laws were created to allow for women to vote, and for other civil rights. It's very difficult not to understand, and very hard to argue against the common sense approach of the Constitution.
Conservatives, liberals, and progressives are a thing of today, not back then.
However, unlike today, back then our nation was in fact comprised of peoples of traditional beliefs. The Constitution and it's amendments is the base of any rights we may have attained through the years, not "progressive" ideals.
I think you can make a good argument for that--that the Constitution was a sort of culmination of the rights that had been gradually won in Europe from the Magna Carta through the English Bill of Rights. At the same time it's hard not to say those ideas were not progressive in a world that was still so tyrannized. I think both sides can make a good argument on that.
That's too simple to be quite accurate. The Americans, before the Revolution, were calling on the King to quash the prerogatives of the Parliament in the colonies. That would've been a highly illiberal act, and George III was committed to constitutional government, as he saw it contrasted with the absolute monarchy of France.
Some British Tories, most famously Edmund Burke, opposed war with the colonies.
British Tories and American ones weren't the same thing. In American terms Tory meant those loyal to Britiain regardless of which British political party they may have aligned with. Loyalist is the term preferred in Canada.
I assert that the kind of people conservative today would've been Loyalists. Conservatism is a mind set, a way of looking at the world. In 1775 that mind set would've led to being a Loyalist, in 1820 it would've led to defending property qualifications for voting, in 1860 defending slavery and so on. Always a defense of established political and economic power.
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