Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What does that have to do with anything? Compared to today's values, the Founding Fathers were quite Conservative (actually more Libertarian).
And compared to the values of their own day they were quite liberal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117
Apparently they reached some sort of compromise. Else we wouldn't be here today.
We're also here today and don't agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117
So are you suggesting that instead of working, we should all stay at home and suck up SS benefits without lifting a finger. Sounds good to me
No, I never said that. I'm saying that people simply pulling their weight solves no problems. In the past people pulled their weight and it solved nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117
Ah, so here is the punch line.. Yes, Conservatives didn't care about their jobs, wages, or benefits You are a bright one, aren't you? Liberals did not give Americans higher wages and better/safer working environments or living conditions. That is far from the truth.
That's right Frankie, conservatives don't care about wages, safety and benefits for working people. All the advances for working people---Wagner Act and OSHA, 40 hour work week, mine safety, minimum wage---all were done by liberals and fought by conservatives tooth and nail. Conservatives still fight advances for working people as is shown by the fight over the check-off bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117
I still am not seeing the point of what you have posted. You seem to be declaring that working is not required, and that everything should be provided for us with no effort.
That's your Goebbels Twist, I neither declared or implied such thing and you know it.
Not a decent definition of Liberalism at all. The appropriate turn-around would be "Liberalism is marked by reverence for the individual - in that every individual is valued equally. There is no 'ruling class' that is worth reverence."
Start with that. No doubt you could do the same thing.
Well, saying that conservatism reveres authority is also completely off base. True conservatism believes in the rights of the individual, not in an all encompassing nanny state. That would be more akin to classic liberalism.
Pull your weight? Are you serious? People used to pull their weight right into early graves thanks to mine explosions, factory fires, job site accidents and asbestosis and black and brown lung disease.
People used to pull their weight for barely enough food to keep going and lived in disease ridden tenaments. People pulled their weight for pitiful wages with no pensions and protections.
People pulled their weight until they were worn down, worked out and burned out. People can be worked to death, the guy who said hard work never killed anyone was probably the boss.
Meanwhile the conservatives didn't give damn. It was the liberals who gave Americans higher wages and better and safer working and living conditions.
Then we had another little institution American conservatives were fond of called slavery---people pulled their weight there, oh yeah you can bet they pulled their weight, that or the lash.
Settle down. By pull your weight I don't mean into an early grave. As it happens, I am for unions, I am against businesses using offshore labor (which really does meet the defination of slavery in many cases).
By pull your weight I mean be responble for yourself, your family, your community and ultimately your country. In other words, do your damn best. How the hell is that being a slavemonger?
I have a lot of respect and empathy for the working poor...imo they deserve more help then they are getting to improve their station in life. And by help I do mean food stamps and the like. But then they pull their weight.
As to conservatives being pro slavery ---- well, slave owners are now all dead, so how do you suggest we poll them? I mean, from things I have read, they were also christian, but certainly not by our current defination of christianity, right? Same goes with conservatism. I know it is much easier to parrot hyperbole, but sometimes it really does make sense to actually read posts and debate the merits found within. Harder, I know....but still
Since conservatives tend to be labeled traditionalists and liberals tend to be labled progessives, I've often wondered what do conservatives see in traditional values.
I mean what does that even mean "I have traditional values". Does that mean you want to go back to a time when blacks had to drink from separate fountains...or further back to when they were slaves. To a time when women couldn't vote? A time when the average worker made pennies on the dollar? I know the obvious answer...traditional family values but what about all these other controversies throughout the years.
Was Martin Luther King a traditionalist? How about Lincoln or even the founding fathers? I think their ideas were radically progressive for their respective times.
Our country has become what it is today because of liberal, progressive social ideas. So what say you conservatives? Why do you believe traditional values are best for this country when this is a historically failed viewpoint?
Listen to MLK when he preached, those are traditional values and ones I still hold dear. My values don't change with the wind. Much of what our country is today can be blamed on the lack of values, traditional or not.
If you think our country is on the up slope than I will hold on to my traditional values, especially since they are in line with many fine leaders like MLK.
Listen to MLK when he preached, those are traditional values and ones I still hold dear. My values don't change with the wind. Much of what our country is today can be blamed on the lack of values, traditional or not.
If you think our country is on the up slope than I will hold on to my traditional values, especially since they are in line with many fine leaders like MLK.
Which speech are you referring to exactly? Here's a small excerpt from his "I have a Dream Speech":
"As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only". We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream."
This was traditionalist rhetoric for its time period?
For example, if the current battle for gay rights is equivalent to the past struggles for women's rights, civil rights, and workers' rights and you were to say gay rights is a liberal agenda, then what makes the past battle for the former any different?
As a follow-up to my previous post...does anyone who studied civil rights history know if the bible/religion was used against black rights? What about women rights?
As a follow-up to my previous post...does anyone who studied civil rights history know if the bible/religion was used against black rights? What about women rights?
Which speech are you referring to exactly? Here's a small excerpt from his "I have a Dream Speech":
"As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only". We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream."
This was traditionalist rhetoric for its time period?
For example, if the current battle for gay rights is equivalent to the past struggles for women's rights, civil rights, and workers' rights and you were to say gay rights is a liberal agenda, then what makes the past battle for the former any different?
I am not talking about civil rights speeches but speeches in churches as a pastor/reverend/preacher. His Christian belief system was the basis for his work in the civil rights arena. His message to his church was truly inspirational and many churches today can take a lesson from his sermons.
It is a shame that his life as a Baptist preacher is many times overlooked. A great man of God.
If you look hard enough, you can probably find justification in any sacred book to justify both sides of any argument.
.....which makes the Bible or any other so-called sacred book worthless, as far as them being used as a basis for social policy or for anything for that matter. If you can quote the Bible to argue for anything, while using the same Bible to argue against it, why are we even wasting our time with this book? Why Barack Obama took his oath on this piece of garbage is beyond me.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
