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Old 08-24-2009, 12:39 PM
 
Location: PA
5,562 posts, read 5,683,672 times
Reputation: 1962

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post

There is nothing wrong with government intervention. Just depends on if it is stealing from working people and creating less freedom in the future when government is in control. Teh public option will become the only option via the new reforms, new controls and new taxes to keep up with it. If there was a public option that didnt require taxes via the people who were using it and had charity funding and or other inventive ways of raising money I think that would be closer to free choice. But that wont happen because washington is full of people who believe programs are solutions and taxes are wondeful. Reality and the history of this govenrment and every program becomes nothing but another way for the government to control choice sooner or later. Government can be a place to give people options but it all depends on what idealogy is in washington every 4 years. Which is why I question if they really should be in charge of anything really important. Libertarian for 4 years then we could have socialist the next and good luck removing the socialism creates nothing but dependents.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:39 PM
 
Location: The Great State of Texas, Finally!
5,477 posts, read 12,247,018 times
Reputation: 2825
If you beat down Reagan enough, then everything else looks like a walk in the garden. Why are libs so obsessed with Reagan? Please go back and have another glass of that Obama-Aid. Leave Reagan alone.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,643 posts, read 26,384,037 times
Reputation: 12648
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
No, that's not what "the founding fathers" believed.

In any case, if you had read the article you would know--as though everybody doesn't already know--that deregulation by the government resulted in a lower standard of living for most Americans, as well as the economic mess we are now in.

I think maybe someone didn't live through the Carter years.

RealClearPolitics - Electoral Map (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=18 - broken link)

RealClearPolitics - Electoral Map (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=17 - broken link)

I should have expected the deregulation hobgoblin to rear its ugly head today since the polls are so bad for the Democrats. Perhaps you tell me what "deregulation" you are referring to. I know it's not the repeal of Glass-Steigall because Clinton signed that.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:49 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,528,561 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Actually, government intervention is bad
Unless you're robbed, your house burns, the country is attacked, scientific study is needed, highways need to be built, you want an educated populace, etc.
Quote:
- we should be free to make our own choices, and live our own lives.
You are free to make your own choices and live your own life. What a silly thing to say.
Quote:
It's what the founding fathers believed in.
The Founders are dead. It's not the 18th century anymore, and the Founders set up GOVERNMENT; they didn't "set up" anarchy.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:55 PM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,722,262 times
Reputation: 13892
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Agreed - a very good article. And I say that as a long time conservative moderate.

It is truly amazing how the Reagan myth continues to flourish.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:59 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,528,561 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll View Post
There is nothing wrong with government intervention. Just depends on if it is stealing from working people and creating less freedom in the future when government is in control. Teh public option will become the only option via the new reforms, new controls and new taxes to keep up with it. If there was a public option that didnt require taxes via the people who were using it and had charity funding and or other inventive ways of raising money I think that would be closer to free choice. But that wont happen because washington is full of people who believe programs are solutions and taxes are wondeful. Reality and the history of this govenrment and every program becomes nothing but another way for the government to control choice sooner or later. Government can be a place to give people options but it all depends on what idealogy is in washington every 4 years. Which is why I question if they really should be in charge of anything really important.
Let me ask you some things. Have you ever needed the police? Does it upset you that private investigators cost an arm and a leg? Have you ever heard anyone complain about choice when it concerns the police? Do you think it would be wise to abolish the police and let people personally pay for their own crime investigations, case by case?
Quote:
Libertarian for 4 years then we could have socialist the next and good luck removing the socialism creates nothing but dependents.
Stop with the "socialism" already.

If you read the article, you'd understand that working people haven't made any gains over the last eight years. That's the market creating dependency, not "socialism."
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:59 PM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,722,262 times
Reputation: 13892
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
that deregulation by the government resulted in a lower standard of living for most Americans, as well as the economic mess we are now in.
Something that is undeniably true and evident to all except those hardwired to Hannity/Limbaugh.

Last edited by CrownVic95; 08-24-2009 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,643 posts, read 26,384,037 times
Reputation: 12648
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Typical right-wing response. IMMEDIATELY, you politicize it. The content is irrelevant. What's important is that it comes from a liberal. From that realization on, you're not interested.

Reagan WAS bad, in terms of domestic policy, if not foreign policy. Very bad, indeed. And TODAY'S GOP is full of lunatics, although that hasn't always been the case.

I'm a liberal. Probably left of liberal. But I still read conservative articles. For example, I think George Will has written some observant and astute pieces over the years (although he's dead wrong on climate change). It's idiotic to reject a point of view based merely on the writer's political affiliation. The content is what is important.

Crazy old Reagan read the bills he signed. What a nut!
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:12 PM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,722,262 times
Reputation: 13892
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobolt View Post
If you beat down Reagan enough, then everything else looks like a walk in the garden. Why are libs so obsessed with Reagan? Please go back and have another glass of that Obama-Aid. Leave Reagan alone.
I'm not going to speak for the libs. But this moderate conservative, after voting for Reagan in 1984 like most others, knew that he'd been had by the middle of Reagan's second term.

The Reagan era was the beginning of the end of America as we knew it and yet many poor slobs remain fast asleep and cheering on the wealthy as they continue to pillage this country.

Just to be clear - I am NOT saying America's demise was Reagan's intent. His mistake was the naivete often talked about by wife Nancy. He "got government off the backs" of the rich and trusted that they would do the right thing.

They didn't.
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:23 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,528,561 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
I'm not going to speak for the libs. But this moderate conservative, after voting for Reagan in 1984 like most others, knew that he'd been had by the middle of Reagan's second term.

The Reagan era was the beginning of the end of America as we knew it and yet many poor slobs remain fast asleep and cheering on the wealthy as they continue to pillage this country.

Just to be clear - I am NOT saying America's demise was Reagan's intent. His mistake was the naivete often talked about by wife Nancy. He "got government off the backs" of the rich and trusted that they would do the right thing.

They didn't.
I'm a moderate independent, and I agree with you completely. I'm amazed at the brainwashed masses who believe the market is inherently good. It's almost as if they are making a moral judgement that the market is benevolent. It makes me gag when I hear how these poor rich people are giving us jobs out of the goodness of their hearts. I don't know where this idea comes from as history contradicts it, and indeed, it's contradictory to human behavior.
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