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ah there is the rub --- your post mentions crime stats for AA but that is just the teaser. thats not what you wana talk bout. you wana talk bout sterotyping discrimination, 1862 & and the history of slavery huh. we do that alot on CDF dont we. not on the same page. i think its good to talk but not like that. that is just talking at each other not to each other.
good night.
I dont want to talk about slavery nor 1862. I just wanted to start a dialogue about my question since a conservative radio talk show host, Larry Elder , brought this topic up years ago, and he said that he was or is mad at the black men who make his life as a law abiding black man hard when it comes to getting a cab in New York or getting any type of services that white males simply take for granted. But thanks for the reply. It did get your attention at least.
A murderer may have only killed one person. A serial killer has killed hummmmmm? how many people? At least 2 or am I being too much of a generalist?
That's the point. He was complaining that blacks that kill more than one person does not get the title "serial killer" as though that is an accomplisment
If the area where most blacks live consists of blacks, then who the heck do you think the criminals will commit crimes against?
Umm, yea. Thats what I (and the statistics) are saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wapasha
Exactly, if you live in the inner cities, where the crime is, you will find more crime. Race is not an issue. Or do people think that a propensity towards committing crime is coded into our DNA?
?? What? "If you live where theres crime, youll find crime because thats where the crime is?"
Tell me you see the circular logic of that statement?
I cannot tell exactly what you are arguing here? Are you saying the statistics (that show that crime is mostly intra-racial with minorities, and more often extraracial with whites, and correlates mostly with income and region rather than race) are incorrect, which is what I just state, or the opposite?
The black crime statistics are what they are. Yet we can quote statistics until we are all black and blue, but the reality of the matter is that, me being a black male, and there are millions of blacks like me who have never committed a crime, who have never been arrested, who have never been on parole, who are bascially law abiding citizens, and yet no one addresses that statistic as well----HUMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
But, unfortunately, a black male like me, who has two degrees still falls into the stereotype, because of my fellow black brotha's inability to obey the law in proportion to whites. Should I be mad at that brotha for making my life hard by allowing whites to justify stereotyping me when they say blacks only make up 13% of the population yet commit 50% of the crimes? Should I act a fool every time I run into a person who is suprised to see that I am articulate, educated, and non combative?
The reality of being black in America too is that we seem to give many reasons for whites doing certain crimes, and the same isn't applied to blacks. Here's a prime example. When a white person steals chronically, he or she isn't a criminal but has a mental disorder, and we put the label on that person as a cleptomaniac. A white male who kills several women or prostitutes is a serial killer instead of a murderer. Let a black male kill more than one person, he surely isn't called a serial killer. Let a black person steal from the store more than once, he surely isn't labelled a cleptomaniac.
Blacks fall into a catch-22. We are damned for being good citizens, and we are damned for not being good citizens. When we try to achieve the American dream some look at it in amazement when statisically, especially if you are black from the inner city, you are not supposed to finish high school nor go to college.
I don't think anyone would disagree with me on this. Every American regardless of his race basically wants the American Dream and just wants to be TREATED FAIRLY.
There seems to be this view by some who think that when a person in authority has to encounter blacks, for what ever reason, we are ALL going to automatically react like Professor Gates. I just wonder had Gates been white, and reacted the same exact way, would he have still been arrested?
The sad reality of this whole situation too is that the media doesn't make it any better because that type of media helps their ratings, and again we end up back at square one---talking about racism in America-which in most cases, it's just the media's attempt to stir up controversy and mess which many people fall right into the media's trap.
I think you went too far in trying to explain yourself. I could pick apart the second half of your post and put a totally different spin on much of what you say. For example, being a serial killer is much worse than being simply a murderer.
However, for now let me say that I understand your point. You are concerned that you and all other blacks are stereotyped by the behavior of a relatively small number of low class blacks. While it is probably true that there are more low class blacks than low class whites as a percentage of our respective numbers in the population I don't think it's true that most folks lump you in with them.
That was easy for me to say but I'm sure I haven't left you convinced. I live in Atlanta and I work for State government so I mingle with an awful lot of blacks. Most of the people I work with as well as most of the people at work that I consider my friends are black. I would not lump any of the black folks at work in with the low class blacks. I also run into an awful lot of blacks down town who are low class blacks. I can't ever go ourside for a smoke without a black pan handler asking me for a cigarette or a quarter. Usually I can't even understand what they are saying as they are extremely inarticulate. Then I go back inside an mingle with the blacks who are a pleasure to work with. Trust me, I know the difference.
I think the problem is that we both get too defensive. I will make a comment such as, "most of these low class blacks do not have the mental capacity, ability, inclination or initiative to do any better." Then you will jump on me for being racist because you feel as though I think all blacks are stupid. You take it personally as you feel as though I think you are stupid as well.
Then I get defensive and argue my point even harder. That guy down town who asked me for a quarter who cannot even communicate effectively could not find a job doing anything. He is unemployable. I doubt that he even has the capacity to be educated to the point of being employable. He's dull. I will explain that this does not mean that I think you are dull but it's too late. We are in a pi$$ing contest.
One of my girl friends at work is black and we joke about it. Every time I go into her office she says, "Quick, hide the money. Here come the white people". Then I'll say something like, "Yeah, we're money grubbers. That's why we stay in school and work hard. So we can make a lot of money. It's a white thing." Then we'll both laugh about it.
Even if you started from low class beginnings you obviously have the mental capacity, ability, inclination and initiative to do better and you have. So have most other blacks.
I think we both have a pretty good idea as to what the problem is. I think we should both work at not becoming so defensive. It gets in the way of effective dialog.
By the way, there was one guy outside work who asked me for a cigarette who was quite articulate. He asked me if I would mind if he smoked with me. I said no and lit a cigarette. He just sat there looking at me. Finally I looked right at him and he said, "I'll need a cigarette". I laughed and gave him a cigarette. That was a good one. I was bagged!
For the most part this was a good post. You point is understood and well taken.
- Reel
Last edited by Reelist in Atlanta; 10-25-2009 at 04:43 AM..
I dont want to talk about slavery nor 1862. I just wanted to start a dialogue about my question since a conservative radio talk show host, Larry Elder , brought this topic up years ago, and he said that he was or is mad at the black men who make his life as a law abiding black man hard when it comes to getting a cab in New York or getting any type of services that white males simply take for granted. But thanks for the reply. It did get your attention at least.
To answer your question, yeah, you should be mad at the folks who seem to be getting you stereotyped. Also, you and other blacks should speak out more about the problems in that particular segment of the black population. That way we would not be left with the impression that, at worst, all blacks or like that or, at best, you sympathize with the low class blacks. I have a lot of respect for Larry Elder and he is doing the right thing here.
A similar situation exists in the Muslim community. They have an element that behaves poorly. They blow things up and kill people. When the majority of the Muslim community fails to speak out against this many are left with the impression that they sympathize with the extreme element of their society. I don't believe they do but it would be helpful if they would let us know that.
To answer your question, yeah, you should be mad at the folks who seem to be getting you stereotyped. Also, you and other blacks should speak out more about the problems in that particular segment of the black population. That way we would not be left with the impression that, at worst, all blacks or like that or, at best, you sympathize with the low class blacks. I have a lot of respect for Larry Elder and he is doing the right thing here.
A similar situation exists in the Muslim community. They have an element that behaves poorly. They blow things up and kill people. When the majority of the Muslim community fails to speak out against this many are left with the impression that they sympathize with the extreme element of their society. I don't believe they do but it would be helpful if they would let us know that.
- Reel
You honestly believe no one of the same faction ever speaks out against what their "brothers" do? They do it all the time. It's just not up to the standards of some, but going on about it until they're blue in the face(no pun intended) won't solve the issue unless the head of the snake is removed.
I think you went too far in trying to explain yourself. I could pick apart the second half of your post and put a totally different spin on much of what you say. For example, being a serial killer is much worse than being simply a murderer.
However, for now let me say that I understand your point. You are concerned that you and all other blacks are stereotyped by the behavior of a relatively small number of low class blacks. While it is probably true that there are more low class blacks than low class whites as a percentage of our respective numbers in the population I don't think it's true that most folks lump you in with them.
That was easy for me to say but I'm sure I haven't left you convinced. I live in Atlanta and I work for State government so I mingle with an awful lot of blacks. Most of the people I work with as well as most of the people at work that I consider my friends are black. I would not lump any of the black folks at work in with the low class blacks. I also run into an awful lot of blacks down town who are low class blacks. I can't ever go ourside for a smoke without a black pan handler asking me for a cigarette or a quarter. Usually I can't even understand what they are saying as they are extremely inarticulate. Then I go back inside an mingle with the blacks who are a pleasure to work with. Trust me, I know the difference.
I think the problem is that we both get too defensive. I will make a comment such as, "most of these low class blacks do not have the mental capacity, ability, inclination or initiative to do any better." Then you will jump on me for being racist because you feel as though I think all blacks are stupid. You take it personally as you feel as though I think you are stupid as well.
Then I get defensive and argue my point even harder. That guy down town who asked me for a quarter who cannot even communicate effectively could not find a job doing anything. He is unemployable. I doubt that he even has the capacity to be educated to the point of being employable. He's dull. I will explain that this does not mean that I think you are dull but it's too late. We are in a pi$$ing contest.
One of my girl friends at work is black and we joke about it. Every time I go into her office she says, "Quick, hide the money. Here come the white people". Then I'll say something like, "Yeah, we're money grubbers. That's why we stay in school and work hard. So we can make a lot of money. It's a white thing." Then we'll both laugh about it.
Even if you started from low class beginnings you obviously have the mental capacity, ability, inclination and initiative to do better and you have. So have most other blacks.
I think we both have a pretty good idea as to what the problem is. I think we should both work at not becoming so defensive. It gets in the way of effective dialog.
By the way, there was one guy outside work who asked me for a cigarette who was quite articulate. He asked me if I would mind if he smoked with me. I said no and lit a cigarette. He just sat there looking at me. Finally I looked right at him and he said, "I'll need a cigarette". I laughed and gave him a cigarette. That was a good one. I was bagged!
For the most part this was a good post. You point is understood and well taken.
- Reel
I appreciate your reply, and you took my point regarding blacks being defensive, especially when there's no need to be. It's easy for black to be defensive because of the catch-22 we are placed in. My people can be successful, unsuccessful, poor, rich, educated, and not educated, and still be labelled simply by the color of their skin when the average person, including blacks as well, sees a brotha or sista walking down the street and size that person up based on how he or she looks, and what he or she wears. It's a self-fulfillng prophecy as well, if you are black and want to be a statistic, hummmm? it's quite easy to be one. If you are black and want to beat the odds, then hummmmm? it's a choice that we have to make as well. It's all in how you perceive things.
The black crime statistics are what they are. Yet we can quote statistics until we are all black and blue, but the reality of the matter is that, me being a black male, and there are millions of blacks like me who have never committed a crime, who have never been arrested, who have never been on parole, who are bascially law abiding citizens, and yet no one addresses that statistic as well----HUMMMMMMMMMMMMM?
But, unfortunately, a black male like me, who has two degrees still falls into the stereotype, because of my fellow black brotha's inability to obey the law in proportion to whites. Should I be mad at that brotha for making my life hard by allowing whites to justify stereotyping me when they say blacks only make up 13% of the population yet commit 50% of the crimes? Should I act a fool every time I run into a person who is suprised to see that I am articulate, educated, and non combative?
The reality of being black in America too is that we seem to give many reasons for whites doing certain crimes, and the same isn't applied to blacks. Here's a prime example. When a white person steals chronically, he or she isn't a criminal but has a mental disorder, and we put the label on that person as a cleptomaniac. A white male who kills several women or prostitutes is a serial killer instead of a murderer. Let a black male kill more than one person, he surely isn't called a serial killer. Let a black person steal from the store more than once, he surely isn't labelled a cleptomaniac.
Blacks fall into a catch-22. We are damned for being good citizens, and we are damned for not being good citizens. When we try to achieve the American dream some look at it in amazement when statisically, especially if you are black from the inner city, you are not supposed to finish high school nor go to college.
I don't think anyone would disagree with me on this. Every American regardless of his race basically wants the American Dream and just wants to be TREATED FAIRLY.
There seems to be this view by some who think that when a person in authority has to encounter blacks, for what ever reason, we are ALL going to automatically react like Professor Gates. I just wonder had Gates been white, and reacted the same exact way, would he have still been arrested?
The sad reality of this whole situation too is that the media doesn't make it any better because that type of media helps their ratings, and again we end up back at square one---talking about racism in America-which in most cases, it's just the media's attempt to stir up controversy and mess which many people fall right into the media's trap.
I think it depends on context.
* if walking down a dark DC alley way at midnight, the stereotype may save your life
* if deciding on an employee or teammate, the stereotype will be counterproductive
* when discussing national policies, statistics are very important for what they tell us and don;t tell us
* when looking at colelge admissions for the state, the stats she intersting light.
* when looking at the admission folder of one person, the stats are secondary information at best.
* when a cop has an ABP for two black kids, he should know that two black kids in one place is not the same as two black kids in another. Stats can help.
But...media loves to fan the flames. If the context is off-kilter, the implications can be very ugly.
Unfortunately, America like things all one way. Judging by context used to be a very American character trait, even among humble folks. Now? We are dumber than a door nail. SO we have no basic ability to understand stats.
Conversations like those on Charlie Rose or Tavis Smiley are one one-thousandths the mubmo jumbo of popmedia.
S.
P.S. If I were black, I do not know if I would be mad, but I would be tired of having to be on guard for misinterpretations and tendencies to morph the stats toward some form that indicts the entire race.
We would be doing blacks a big favor by ending the war on drugs. Get rid of the illegal market it creates and you get rid of a ton of arrests, and also take power away from gangs and thugs who make their living by selling drugs.
The idea I like the most that I have seen so far is:
Legalize marijuana and regulate JUST LIKE ALCOHOL. That keeps thousands of non violent offenders out of prison, saving tax revenue, while creating tax revenue from legalization and taxation. A double shot for the economy. It also keeps non violent weed dealers from ending up with a felony record that ruins any chance they have of getting a good job later in life. We do not need to be ruining lives over a drug that is usually not associated with violence and that is less dangerous to the general public than alcohol.
I would elaborate on other drugs, but marijuana policy is the most important place to start as it is the most widely used drug and would make the biggest impact.
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