Confederate Flag, your take? (women, spend, Republican, speeches)
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They seceded over slavery. They admit it. They're proud of it. They didn't want their right to buy and sell other human beings challenged and so they decided to form their own country. Deal with it. It's not that complicated.
No it is not very complicated at all.
I thought I went through it in my post that you replied to but you decided that it was all about slavery no other causes.
What about the northern states not adhering to the constitution?
What about the fact that it was clearly stated in the constitution that slaves would be returned?
What about the fact that at that time it was not illegal to own slaves?
You cannot take a 2009 mentality to look at a 1800's issue and expect to be taken seriously yet you keep parroting the same few lines.
The confederacy existed for about 4 years. And it vanished 144 years ago. None of the rights and privileges you enjoy derive from the confederacy.
You seem intent on framing them in terms of actual existence extant.
The Declaration of Independence and Constitution was largely written by Southern men. The CSA constitution was a direct take of the original. The Great Seal of the Confederacy featured George Washington.
What you fail to understand -- or acknowledge -- is really a very simple point. That is, the Southern states wished to seperate themselves from a political connection with the northern states. NOT from the "United States" and the underlying principles of the same. In fact, when the provisional Confederate Congress assembled, some wanted to call the new nation the "United States", believing they were the heirs to the original principles of the Founding Fathers...and especially the truism that "government derives its powers from the consent of the governed".
What if they had? Would the same argument used to declare the South was fighting against the "United States"...hold up if both sides had referred to themselves as "United States"?
Bottom line is, this "United States" aspect to attempt and demonstrate the South was traitorous, is rhetorical and simplistically emotional. I might mention to that the First National Flag of the CSA (the true Stars and Bars) was intentionally designed after flag of the Old Union.
It was the American Southern states against northern states. All there was to it in that regard. The latter kept the name "United States" only by default.
Anyway, time for supper. I will have to continue this one tomorow or the next day or something. Y'all have a good one!
How about a little history lesson for those graduating high school in the last 20 years?
I am sure this is all very shocking to the race card players but the civil war had little to do with slavery.
I can tell you one thing for certain, hundreds of thousands of white American families of both sides didn't send their precious sons to war to free black slaves. That didn't happen and in fact Lincoln never brought the issue of slavery up until the north's first "victory" at the Battle of Antietam fought September 17, 1862.
Slavery was a dead as an institution and most everyone in the south knew it. By 1870 it would have been gone even without a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands.
Did you know to this day the bloodiest day in American military history was September 17, 1862 at the the Battle of Antietam? To this day it remains in the record book as the single bloodiest day in American history not surpassed by the D-Day invasion of the Normandy beaches or when the Marines stormed the island of Iwo Jima.
In the south we have lots of confederate graveyards where the stars and bars fly every day. In these graveyards there are thousands of confederate soldiers both black and white.
So have some of the kooks of the KKK hijacked the stars and bars? You betcha they have but by equating the stars and bars with the KKK we are destroying the memory of the men pictured below.
So if the race baiters want to trample the memory of men long dead don't count me in with them.
http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks_files/black6.jpg (broken link)
Certainly almost exclusively true of northerners who fly the Confederate Flag.
Perhaps that's why YOU are ignorant of why it is flown in the South?
That people think that southerners fly the Confederate Flag in order to say, "Look at me!!! I hate black people!!!" is pretty much a$$inine. However, I'm sure that southerners appreciate you telling them what they think and why they do what they do. And northerners wonder why southerners view them the way they do when northerners are just as guilty as anyone of perpetuating the regionalism.
As a native born Virginian from a family that has its roots in Virginia, I can say, I am not ignorant of what most southerners think. Apart from my wide personal exposure to the south, think about it, you are speaking for some white people. You think this flag means anything but bigotry to African-Americans and those who subscribe to the ideals of the Republic. You must represent the throwbacks. The Confederacy lost, the Repbulic won, get over it. Your very handle is celebrating ignorance.
Last edited by newhandle; 11-30-2009 at 05:49 PM..
I thought I went through it in my post that you replied to but you decided that it was all about slavery no other causes.
What about the northern states not adhering to the constitution?
What about the fact that it was clearly stated in the constitution that slaves would be returned?
What about the fact that at that time it was not illegal to own slaves?
You cannot take a 2009 mentality to look at a 1800's issue and expect to be taken seriously yet you keep parroting the same few lines.
Nonsense. Nobody else except the South though slavery was a viable concern in 1860. Only the south. I'll try it one more time.
The South liked slavery. They wanted it to continue. It beat having to actually pay people to work. They saw Lincoln as a threat to slavery. He took no action to end it and in fact had made conciliatory speeches about it since his election, but that wasn't good enough for the hothead racists that controlled the Southern legislatures.
So they seceded, knowing that it would lead to civil war.
Were there other causes? Who cares? The important cause was slavery. Period.
How about a little history lesson for those graduating high school in the last 20 years?
I am sure this is all very shocking to the race card players but the civil war had little to do with slavery.
I can tell you one thing for certain, hundreds of thousands of white American families of both sides didn't send their precious sons to war to free black slaves. That didn't happen and in fact Lincoln never brought the issue of slavery up until the north's first "victory" at the Battle of Antietam fought September 17, 1862.
Slavery was a dead as an institution and most everyone in the south knew it. By 1870 it would have been gone even without a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands.
Did you know to this day the bloodiest day in American military history was September 17, 1862 at the the Battle of Antietam? To this day it remains in the record book as the single bloodiest day in American history not surpassed by the D-Day invasion of the Normandy beaches or when the Marines stormed the island of Iwo Jima.
In the south we have lots of confederate graveyards where the stars and bars fly every day. In these graveyards there are thousands of confederate soldiers both black and white.
So have some of the kooks of the KKK hijacked the stars and bars? You betcha they have but by equating the stars and bars with the KKK we are destroying the memory of the men pictured below.
So if the race baiters want to trample the memory of men long dead don't count me in with them.
There were no black soldiers who gave their lives for the Confederacy. The Confederate Congress didn't authorize the enlistment of black soldiersuntil March of 1865, a month before the end of the war. Even then white newspapers in the south were outraged by the notion of 'inferior negroes' serving alongside white soldiers.
There were undoubtedly a few black servants that accompanied their masters into battle, and undoubtedly they performed some menial tasks as slaves for the Confederate Army, but get over this notion that black soldiers served in combat. It didn't happen.
How about a little history lesson for those graduating high school in the last 20 years?
I am sure this is all very shocking to the race card players but the civil war had little to do with slavery.
I can tell you one thing for certain, hundreds of thousands of white American families of both sides didn't send their precious sons to war to free black slaves. That didn't happen and in fact Lincoln never brought the issue of slavery up until the north's first "victory" at the Battle of Antietam fought September 17, 1862.
Slavery was a dead as an institution and most everyone in the south knew it. By 1870 it would have been gone even without a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands.
Did you know to this day the bloodiest day in American military history was September 17, 1862 at the the Battle of Antietam? To this day it remains in the record book as the single bloodiest day in American history not surpassed by the D-Day invasion of the Normandy beaches or when the Marines stormed the island of Iwo Jima.
In the south we have lots of confederate graveyards where the stars and bars fly every day. In these graveyards there are thousands of confederate soldiers both black and white.
So have some of the kooks of the KKK hijacked the stars and bars? You betcha they have but by equating the stars and bars with the KKK we are destroying the memory of the men pictured below.
So if the race baiters want to trample the memory of men long dead don't count me in with them.
These men were forced to fight against the very men that wanted to free them. How Ironic!!
How evil that flag is.
Lazy, wealthy slave owners that wanted other people to work while they raped Innocent women for fun.
The people who say it's American history. If your Grand Mother was raped and your Grand father was hanged on a noose while that flag was waiving would you consider that flag a part of history?
They (The Running Rebels) were willing to die for the South to continue to rape and kill. Why be proud of that if you wasn't a racist?
Nonsense. Nobody else except the South though slavery was a viable concern in 1860. Only the south. I'll try it one more time.
The South liked slavery. They wanted it to continue. It beat having to actually pay people to work. They saw Lincoln as a threat to slavery. He took no action to end it and in fact had made conciliatory speeches about it since his election, but that wasn't good enough for the hothead racists that controlled the Southern legislatures.
So they seceded, knowing that it would lead to civil war.
Were there other causes? Who cares? The important cause was slavery. Period.
That right there just shows that you are not interested in facts, just what you think.
You did not address anything in my post except to say the same thing you have said in every other post.
I'll let you have the last word in this because I already know what it is going to be.
I'm new here, but have been lurking for years now and finally decided to join. Anywho being a decendent of Robert E. Lee I always had a positive opinion of the south and Confederate flag. Now with alot of recent events (Ole Miss klan protest on the 21st) making the flag look as bad as it has in the past I just don't know what to think of it.
However seeing alot of hate towards both I just get stuck in mental ruts in what to think of it. And sometimes have trying periods that try to make sense of it all. Heck just a quick search on the web you can find the most vile and hateful things about the south and everything related.
I've never really been to the south before (unless you count East Texas) but I would really like to see it one day. But I have met countless people from there and I thought they were spectacular.
Being a "retired" Civil War Living Historian (not a reenactor), I always get a kick out of how promisuious that Old Gentlman was. Unless you have MOSB credentials, I will suggest you don't blow your horn.
My thoughts?
It represented personal freedom and State Soveriegnty, and has been raped by racial hate groups.
The Southern Cross is the only Confederate flag not currently under the protection of US historical protection laws, a move that would eliminate one of the best known, and msot misrepresented, flags in US history.
BTW, there were many "Confederate Flags". I assume you speak of the Battle Flag.
Nonsense. Nobody else except the South though slavery was a viable concern in 1860. Only the south. I'll try it one more time.
The South liked slavery. They wanted it to continue. It beat having to actually pay people to work. They saw Lincoln as a threat to slavery. He took no action to end it and in fact had made conciliatory speeches about it since his election, but that wasn't good enough for the hothead racists that controlled the Southern legislatures.
So they seceded, knowing that it would lead to civil war.
Were there other causes? Who cares? The important cause was slavery. Period.
There are over ten thousand slaves listed on the 1860 NY tax rolls working the docks of NY harbor. However, slaves were simply too expensive in the north, where housing and food were required to support a work force idle for two or three months a year.
You also obviously don't know about the five "Border States", Union states which did not abolish slavery, or SC leaving over the citizens of the new state of Oklahoma not being permitted to vote on slavery at all.
I suggest reading up on the subject before jumping into the thread feet first with eyes closed.
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. And sometimes have trying periods that try to make sense of it all. Heck just a quick search on the web you can find the most vile and hateful things about the south and everything related.
