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You certainly did imply it ("you can't just live a life of sin and not have sorrow in your heart and expect to be saved on judgment day.")
And I never said I was going to hell. Hell is imaginary - it doesn't exist.
First, my lifestyle is this: Skiing, camping, hiking, swimming, throwing dinner parties for friends and family, voraciously reading, fanatically watching sports, and traveling. Sexuality is not the same thing as a lifestyle - not even remotely close. The fact that I'm inherently emotionally and sexually attracted to other men has essentially nothing to do with my lifestyle. Perhaps you should ask about my lifestyle before you say you disagree with it.
And no, my argument is not hypocritical. I could care less if you "dislike" the fact that I am gay. That doesn't bother me one bit. What I hate - what bothers me - is when people move beyond "dislike" and choose to discriminate and repress using the force of law. If you just stopped at dislike I would have no qualm with you (I might even like you), but when you support discrimination against me seek to make me a second class citizen with fewer rights than you have simply because of who I am, then I strongly dislike you. I'm not gonna lay down and take it - I'm going to fight for my rights.
I'm not hypocritical because unlike you I stop at dislike. I dislike fundamental religion. I disapprove of choosing it as part of your lifestyle. However, I don't try and discriminate against or suppress religious fundamentalists using the force of law. I've never once advocated for a law or policy that discriminates against or denies equal rights to the fundamentally religious.
See the difference??????????????????
I'm very confused now. Now it seems like you might actually be for gay rights ("Civil union, fine")
Let me clear something up. Do you understand that a religious marriage and a civil marriage are two separate, unrelated things (unfortunately they use the same word)? When I ask for access to the legal rights of civil marriage, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion or religious marriage.
When given force by our secular government, a civil marriage is nothing more than a legal contract between two people conferring to them 1400 legal rights. It has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. When people say they are for gay marriage, all they are saying is that they think gay people should have equal access to those 1400 legal rights.
So I'll just ask point blank:
Should I and the man I love be allowed access to the 1400 legal rights that the government grants couples with civil marriage contracts?
Should I be allowed to serve the United States military without having to lie about or suppress knowledge of the man I love and choose to share a life and family with?
Should it remain legal throughout most of the US that I can be fired from my job simply because my boss finds out that I'm gay?
Should it remain legal throughout most of the US that a restaurant or a hotel can deny me service simply because I'm gay (or because the think I'm gay)?
If you are in fact if favor of me having equal rights, then I apologize for attacking you the way I have.
It is your position that hell is imaginary. As such, you don't believe in God, in which case, you are going to hell.
Living your life with a man is considered your lifestyle, and a gay one. Just like living my life with my husband is considered my lifestyle, a straight lifestyle.
It's not discrimination to disallow men from marrying other men and women from marrying other women. That is not normal. That is not something we should be encouraging. Marriage is a biblical term, meaning the covenant a man and woman make before God. If you want to make your relationship "official" then get a civil union. I have no problem with that b/c then you're not infringing upon my right to be married to a member of the opposite sex. And no, there is no difference between a civil marriage and a religious marriage...marriage is marriage whether performed by a priest or by an officiant at the courthouse (FWIW, my marriage was at the courthouse, and btw, they still use "God" language).
I also never said you were a second class citizen. I don't care what you do but keep it to yourself and don't expect to be able to get married and have access to the benefits that come with that. I also do not support adoption for gays. *bracing myself*
I couldn't care less if you dislike me, you are a faceless bunch of words on a public forum. I'm sorry you are gay but that does not give you free reign to be a jerk or say you hate people who disagree with your lifestyle/choice of partner. That's a very immature tactic to take in argumentation.
What is your definition of a religious fundamentalist? Someone who adheres to the Bible? Why would that be a bad thing? If anything, the people who choose to deviate from the Bible are the ones in the wrong, and they are not true Christians.
"I'm not hypocritical because unlike you I stop at dislike." What does this mean? I don't hate you, or even your lifestyle, I already told you this. It is not very Christian-like to hate things. I can dislike your gayness all I want, though, and I have every right to state my opinion, as you have.
I don't believe in "gay rights." I believe in rights for Americans.
The people who are pro-gay marriage should say they are for civil unions, not marriage, b/c marriage is a biblical term that does not apply to gays.
I'm don't think you should have the same rights as straight people when it comes to civil unions. Marriage is different from a civil union. If you want to make it official, fine, but don't expect it to be equal to a heterosexual marriage as far as the law. I'm not saying this against YOU as a person, but against the concept of being gay. I don't think it is right, and I don't believe we should recognize it as being right by granting the benefits of marriage to gays who do civil unions.
No, I do not believe you should be allowed to be openly gay in the military. There are so many ramifications of that. I'm sorry DADT was repealed, we'll see how things go, I guess.
Numerous states offer protection to gays in regards to the private sector. No federal gov't agency may discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
I'm not familiar with any restaurants or hotels that would discriminate against someone who is gay. Money is money. As a restaurant owner, I would not discriminate against someone who is gay as a customer or an employee.
If gay people didn't wear their preference on their sleeves, we wouldn't have the problems we have nowadays. Does everyone HAVE to know that you're gay??
Honestly, nobody is trying to take away your rights. You are trying to shove your sexuality down our throats and it's not right. You have every right that I have. You, however, do not have the right to marry another man since that's against the law. You have the right to marriage...just not to another man. Nobody is trying to take away your rights. Why is this all of a sudden even becoming an issue? In the last few years, I've heard nonstop racket about this from the gay community. It's getting ridiculous. If you want the same right to marriage as heterosexuals, then stop being gay. It's your choice.
As such, you don't believe in God, in which case, you are going to hell.
I'm don't think you should have the same rights as straight people when it comes to civil unions. Marriage is different from a civil union. If you want to make it official, fine, but don't expect it to be equal to a heterosexual marriage as far as the law. I'm not saying this against YOU as a person, but against the concept of being gay. I don't think it is right, and I don't believe we should recognize it as being right by granting the benefits of marriage to gays who do civil unions.
No, I do not believe you should be allowed to be openly gay in the military.
Well, at least you admit you don't see me as equal and feel that I should be treated as a second class citizen. It takes a lot of guts to admit to something so heinous. I can't think of many things more anti-American. May I suggest you go find a theocracy to live in.
Quote:
No federal gov't agency may discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
Absolutely they could - there is nothing stopping them from doing so. There are no federal laws that protect people from discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Quote:
I'm not familiar with any restaurants or hotels that would discriminate against someone who is gay. Money is money. As a restaurant owner, I would not discriminate against someone who is gay as a customer or an employee.
If gay people didn't wear their preference on their sleeves, we wouldn't have the problems we have nowadays. Does everyone HAVE to know that you're gay??
I've PERSONALLY had it happen to me. 3 years ago my boyfriend and I were driving back to Denver from Montana (we were there for a funeral). We stopped at a hotel in Whitehall MT just off the I-90 when a storm blew in. As we finished up checking in the clerk was giving us the room info - it's location relative to the desk, where the ice machine was etc, and she mentioned it was a room with two double beds. Upon hearing this, I requested a room with one queen sized bed instead (we slept together). Her response was "Well, I think you should find another motel". We had to drive another 20 miles in a snow storm to Three Forks to get a room.
Was I wearing my "preference" too much on my sleeve????????????? Was I screaming too loudly about my sexuality???????????
Quote:
Honestly, nobody is trying to take away your rights. You are trying to shove your sexuality down our throats and it's not right. You have every right that I have.
How can you possibly say this? You're the one forcing your believes on me. I am attempting to do no such thing. I'm fine with co-existing with you. You want force me to hide and suppress who I am and have no problem using to force of law to achieve your aim.
You seek to use the force of law to deny me the legal rights of civil marriage. You use law to ban same sex marriage and then give me only a false choice - marry a member of the opposite sex, or don't get married at all. And then you have to gall to say that I have the same rights you do. That's you shoving your sexuality down my throat. That's you shoving your fundamental Christianity down my throat. That's you forcing me to conform to your beliefs and values.
I don't want to do that to you. I don't seek to deny you the legal rights of civil marriage (or anything at all). I don't want to corner you into the analogous false choice - marrying a member of the same sex or don't marry at all. I'll I want to do is have the right to marry the man of my choice. That's no way me shoving my sexuality down your throat. That's in no way me forcing you to conform to my beliefs and values. That's in no way shoving my non-Christianity down your throat or attacking your ability to freely worship as you choose. It has no effect on you whatsoever. If you "dislike" it fine - you have a very easy choice to make - don't marry another women.
[MOD CUT]
Last edited by Ibginnie; 12-17-2010 at 07:19 PM..
Reason: personal attack
Well, at least you admit you don't see me as equal and feel that I should be treated as a second class citizen. It takes a lot of guts to admit to something so heinous. I can't think of many things more anti-American. May I suggest you go find a theocracy to live in.
LOL [MOD CUT] I see YOU as equal, I do not view your lifestyle as appropriate and therefore I do not think you are entitled to the equal right to marriage under the law or under God. Try to get it straight (no pun intended).
Absolutely they could - there is nothing stopping them from doing so. There are no federal laws that protect people from discrimination based on sexual orientation.
This is what I was referring to:
Sexual Orientation Discrimination: Your Rights - Free Legal Information - Nolo (http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29541.html - broken link)
Quote:
Federal government workers are protected from such discrimination.
I've PERSONALLY had it happen to me. 3 years ago my boyfriend and I were driving back to Denver from Montana (we were there for a funeral). We stopped at a hotel in Whitehall MT just off the I-90 when a storm blew in. As we finished up checking in the clerk was giving us the room info - it's location relative to the desk, where the ice machine was etc, and she mentioned it was a room with two double beds. Upon hearing this, I requested a room with one queen sized bed instead (we slept together). Her response was "Well, I think you should find another motel". We had to drive another 20 miles in a snow storm to Three Forks to get a room.
That is discriminatory and is not right. I don't know the legality of it, though. That is obviously not a good business practice, either way. Do you know for sure that they had a single queen bed room available? Perhaps that was the issue, not your sexuality.
Was I wearing my "preference" too much on my sleeve????????????? Was I screaming too loudly about my sexuality???????????
I wasn't there, so I don't know.
How can you possibly say this? You're the one forcing your believes on me. I am attempting to do no such thing. I'm fine with co-existing with you. You want force me to hide and suppress who I am and have no problem using to force of law to achieve your aim.
No, I just don't need to know what goes on in your bedroom.
You seek to use the force of law to deny me the legal rights of civil marriage. You use law to ban same sex marriage and then give me only a false choice - marry a member of the opposite sex, or don't get married at all. And then you have to gall to say that I have the same rights you do. That's you shoving your sexuality down my throat. That's you shoving your fundamental Christianity down my throat. That's you forcing me to conform to your beliefs and values.
Whatever you say. People have been straight since the dawn of man, only later did gayness enter the picture. Are you familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah and what happened to those cities?
I don't want to do that to you. I don't seek to deny you the legal rights of civil marriage (or anything at all). I don't want to corner you into the analogous false choice - marrying a member of the same sex or don't marry at all. I'll I want to do is have the right to marry the man of my choice. That's no way me shoving my sexuality down your throat. That's in no way me forcing you to conform to my beliefs and values. That's in no way shoving my non-Christianity down your throat or attacking your ability to freely worship as you choose. It has no effect on you whatsoever. If you "dislike" it fine - you have a very easy choice to make - don't marry another women.
Have a civil union if you want it. I have nothing against that being a form of recognition for gay couples. Or you could quit complaining about it not being legal and move to a state where it is legal, as another poster suggested.
[MOD CUT]
Last edited by Ibginnie; 12-17-2010 at 07:18 PM..
Reason: personal attack
I don't understand these social conservative types. They want the government out of their personal lives and yet want it to control the lives of those who don't live the way that they do.
I keep noticing that, too...over and over again they scream about smaller government...until it's something THEY want
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-17-2010 at 09:36 PM..
Reason: Deleted inappropriate comment
Well, at least you admit you don't see me as equal and feel that I should be treated as a second class citizen. It takes a lot of guts to admit to something so heinous. I can't think of many things more anti-American. May I suggest you go find a theocracy to live in.
Absolutely they could - there is nothing stopping them from doing so. There are no federal laws that protect people from discrimination based on sexual orientation.
I've PERSONALLY had it happen to me. 3 years ago my boyfriend and I were driving back to Denver from Montana (we were there for a funeral). We stopped at a hotel in Whitehall MT just off the I-90 when a storm blew in. As we finished up checking in the clerk was giving us the room info - it's location relative to the desk, where the ice machine was etc, and she mentioned it was a room with two double beds. Upon hearing this, I requested a room with one queen sized bed instead (we slept together). Her response was "Well, I think you should find another motel". We had to drive another 20 miles in a snow storm to Three Forks to get a room.
Was I wearing my "preference" too much on my sleeve????????????? Was I screaming too loudly about my sexuality???????????
How can you possibly say this? You're the one forcing your believes on me. I am attempting to do no such thing. I'm fine with co-existing with you. You want force me to hide and suppress who I am and have no problem using to force of law to achieve your aim.
You seek to use the force of law to deny me the legal rights of civil marriage. You use law to ban same sex marriage and then give me only a false choice - marry a member of the opposite sex, or don't get married at all. And then you have to gall to say that I have the same rights you do. That's you shoving your sexuality down my throat. That's you shoving your fundamental Christianity down my throat. That's you forcing me to conform to your beliefs and values.
I don't want to do that to you. I don't seek to deny you the legal rights of civil marriage (or anything at all). I don't want to corner you into the analogous false choice - marrying a member of the same sex or don't marry at all. I'll I want to do is have the right to marry the man of my choice. That's no way me shoving my sexuality down your throat. That's in no way me forcing you to conform to my beliefs and values. That's in no way shoving my non-Christianity down your throat or attacking your ability to freely worship as you choose. It has no effect on you whatsoever. If you "dislike" it fine - you have a very easy choice to make - don't marry another women.
[MOD CUT]
Yes, why didn't you just accept the room without any further comment and slept in the one bed? Or were you TRYING to make a "point"?
Yes, why didn't you just accept the room without any further comment and slept in the one bed? Or were you TRYING to make a "point"?
What are you talking about? The clerk assumed we were two heterosexual men and initially assigned us a room with two beds in it (I don't begrudge her that - were I a hotel clerk I'd make the same initial assumption about two men or two women traveling together). When she told us we had been set up in a room with two beds I requested a room with one larger bed instead. Every couple I've ever known prefers a hotel room with one large bed over a room with two smaller beds and requests such a room if available. We were no different.
You could see the moment of recognition in her eyes when she realized we were a gay couple. Her response was to ask us to leave. At that point she wasn't going to rent us any room at all. We were refused service because we were gay (which is perfectly legal in Montana).
Do you really think that a gay couple requesting a motel room with a single, queen sized bed is an inappropriate flaunting of sexuality designed to shove it down decent people's throats? Isn't it possible they just want to sleep in the same bed and therefore prefer a larger one?
Last edited by hammertime33; 12-17-2010 at 09:01 PM..
What are you talking about? The clerk assumed we were two heterosexual men passing through and initially assigned us a room with two beds in it. When she told us we had been set up in a room with two beds I requested a room with one larger bed instead. Every couple I've ever known prefers a hotel room with one large bed over a room with two smaller beds and requests such a room if available. We were no different.
You could see the moment of recognition in her eyes when she realized we were a gay couple. Her response was to ask us to leave. At that point she wasn't going to rent us any room at all. We were refused service because we were gay (which is perfectly legal in Montana).
Do you really think that a gay couple requesting a motel room with a single, queen sized bed is an inappropriate flaunting of sexuality designed to shove it down decent people's throats? Isn't it possible they just want to sleep in the same bed and therefore prefer a larger one?
You are making a huge assumption here. Besides which, you didn't have to leave, you could have asked to speak to the manager, etc. If I ever feel like I'm being treated wrongly when at a retail establishment, hotel, restaurant, etc., I have no problem making a stink. All you have to do is ask to speak with the manager. If this honestly happened and the chick was being discriminatory, I would have written a letter to the head of the organization if you didn't get satisfaction from the manager. Seems you would rather complain and scream about it and allege discrimination when you don't even know that was the case. There was ways of handling these things.
You are making a huge assumption here. Besides which, you didn't have to leave, you could have asked to speak to the manager, etc. If I ever feel like I'm being treated wrongly when at a retail establishment, hotel, restaurant, etc., I have no problem making a stink. All you have to do is ask to speak with the manager. If this honestly happened and the chick was being discriminatory, I would have written a letter to the head of the organization if you didn't get satisfaction from the manager. Seems you would rather complain and scream about it and allege discrimination when you don't even know that was the case. There was ways of handling these things.
She was the manager. Whitehall MT is a tiny, tiny town. The only reason we stopped there was because it was 10:30 at night and a snow storm was really starting to kick up (it was in December). It was a small, no-name 30 room motel with probably 4 cars in the parking lot. The front door was locked, the lights in the lobby were off, and there was a sign staying to ring the buzzer after 9pm to call the on-site manager. When we buzzed a women came out of a door marked private to let us in (she obviously lived in the motel). She was in a nightgown and very well may have been sleeping. Again, after we requested a single-bed room it then dawned on her we were gay and she asked us to leave the establishment. There was no one else to talk to - she was it.
I didn't want to cause a scene (there was no one there to see it if I had), plus I didn't want to give her a cent of my money after that. I knew she was within her legal rights. In most municipalities in the US it's perfectly legal to refuse service to some simply because he is gay or if you think he's gay.
I said something sarcastic like "aren't you a beacon of love and acceptance", turned, walked out, and drove another 20 miles to the next nearest motel. I didn't go off screaming about discrimination (even though it was). I didn't go call the ACLU. I wasn't about to make a principled stand on what I think the laws should be while standing in a motel lobby in a small Montana town during a snow storm while driving back home from one of my closest friend's funeral. I was just thoroughly disgusted and moved along.
Talk to enough gay people who spend anytime outside big cities and you'll hear plenty of stories like mine. I've known several other gay couples who've been refused service at restaurants in rural areas while traveling as well as several who've been served but the food was charred to the point of being inedible.
Last edited by hammertime33; 12-17-2010 at 10:17 PM..
She was the manager. Whitehall MT is a tiny, tiny town. The only reason we stopped there was because it was 10:30 at night and a snow storm was really starting to kick up (it was in December). It was a small, no-name 30 room motel with probably 4 cars in the parking lot. The front door was locked, the lights in the lobby were off, and there was a sign staying to ring the buzzer after 9pm to call the on-site manager. When we buzzed a women came out of a door marked private to let us in (she obviously lived in the motel). She was in a nightgown and very well may have been sleeping. Again, after we requested a single-bed room it then on her we were gay and she asked us to leave the establishment. There was no one else to talk to - she was it.
I didn't want to cause a scene (there was no one there to see it if I had), plus I didn't want to give her a cent of my money after that. I knew she was within her legal rights. In most municipalities in the US it's perfectly legal to refuse service to some simply because he is gay or if you think he's gay.
I said something sarcastic like "aren't you a beacon of love and acceptance", turned, walked out, and drove another 20 miles to the next nearest motel. I didn't go off screaming about discrimination (even though it was). I didn't go call the ACLU. I wasn't about to make a principled stand on what I think the laws should be while standing in a motel lobby in a small Montana town during a snow storm while driving back home from one of my closest friend's funeral. I was just thoroughly disgusted and moved along.
Talk to enough gay people who spend anytime outside big cities and you'll hear plenty of stories like mine. I've known several other gay couples who've been refused service at restaurants in rural areas while traveling as well as several who've been served but the food was charred to the point of being inedible.
Then I'm sorry this was your experience, and I'm sorry your friends have gone through similar situations. THAT is bigoted.
Yes, why didn't you just accept the room without any further comment and slept in the one bed? Or were you TRYING to make a "point"?
A twin bed is not large enough for 2 guys, duh. I would have requested a King size. he had a right to request a queen size bed since he obviously was paying for the hotel room.
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