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So that makes it ok for you to be so harsh with her? Your words were cold, unnecessary and crossed the line.
I'm trying to think of how to phrase this and will no doubt make a hash of it. But nonetheless:
This is an internet forum, and we do not know one another. Moreover, it is a very heated debate that has been going on for several days.
It has been my experience, both on CD and on other e-lists, that when someone jumps into an established and vigorous debate and (metaphorically) flings down a miscarried or stillborn child as a gauntlet to ratchet up debate and prove her own credibility, it is not necessarily a sign that she is still so grief-stricken she must be handled gently and with greater care than other posters.
I have tremendous sympathy. That still doesn't turn something into rape when it wasn't rape. Using the word rape is a complete misuse of language and an insult to real rape victims.
The easiest way to dilute any reaction to a real horror is to label everything a horror. When everyone who gets even a bit cross is called Hitler, the real one just becomes a silly man with a goofy moustache. Likewise, when we call everything unpleasant "rape", we needn't, as a society, be outraged by the actual occurrence.
Is this for real? Must be a result of the "It's all about me" mentality. Did you all feel raped?
First off, it's a total insult to those that have been raped.
Second.....Evvvvvrybody wants to be a victim........ No, I didn't feel that I had been raped, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. But I had an easy time of it. I do feel sorry for those who have complications, but viewing it as birth rape???? That HAS to affect the way one sees the product of that situation, ie- the baby. Can't be a good way to start off such an important LTR.
This statement made me chuckle: "when things go awry in the birthing room -- even just a little bit -- it can feel like a complete loss of autonomy."
If maintaining autonomy is the goal, then nix having children, cuz autonomy pretty much goes out the door for the next 18 or so years..... The parasite may have been expelled from your body, but they tend to hang around, undermining your autonomy (and sanity) for many years to come.
I'm trying to think of how to phrase this and will no doubt make a hash of it. But nonetheless:
This is an internet forum, and we do not know one another. Moreover, it is a very heated debate that has been going on for several days.
It has been my experience, both on CD and on other e-lists, that when someone jumps into an established and vigorous debate and (metaphorically) flings down a miscarried or stillborn child as a gauntlet to ratchet up debate and prove her own credibility, it is not necessarily a sign that she is still so grief-stricken she must be handled gently and with greater care than other posters.
Perhaps this makes me cynical. But there it is.
I understand what you're saying, and that could be the case. Although, because we don't know each other, we can only take what somebody says at face value (until they trip themselves up in some way, if they're just posting for effect) - and if somebody posts a difficult and tragic story then I don't think being outright rude to them is necessary. For instance, I took Pamela's cold response to neverthesame's comment at face value as well, it sounded pretty uncompassionate to me. Whether she meant it to or not, she posted what she posted.
But I do agree with you about the handling of grief stricken posters. I find too often that people tend to decide for them that they should not be "wallowing in self pity" or that "they need to get on with their lives", whether that's what they're doing or not. Posting an experience does not equate to wallowing, maybe they just want to share their side of the story. Even if that is the case (wallowing, etc) however, then I don't believe it's anybody else's business to impose their particular time line for another person's mourning, or to decide that they should be over it by now.
I realize that's a bit of a tangent from what you're saying, but it did get me thinking.
My take on it is that it may feel like rape to certain women. However its not really rape. Dr's are just trying to do what is necessary to get the baby out alive in some cases.
I understand what you're saying, and that could be the case. Although, because we don't know each other, we can only take what somebody says at face value (until they trip themselves up in some way, if they're just posting for effect) - and if somebody posts a difficult and tragic story then I don't think being outright rude to them is necessary. For instance, I took Pamela's cold response to neverthesame's comment at face value as well, it sounded pretty uncompassionate to me. Whether she meant it to or not, she posted what she posted.
But I do agree with you about the handling of grief stricken posters. I find too often that people tend to decide for them that they should not be "wallowing in self pity" or that "they need to get on with their lives", whether that's what they're doing or not. Posting an experience does not equate to wallowing, maybe they just want to share their side of the story. Even if that is the case (wallowing, etc) however, then I don't believe it's anybody else's business to impose their particular time line for another person's mourning, or to decide that they should be over it by now.
I realize that's a bit of a tangent from what you're saying, but it did get me thinking.
You need to also consider that emotion doesn't really convey well in written form. Not all of us are professional writers.
I'm far from cold and I am not without compassion. In the course of my life and partly due to my former profession I have developed a certain hardness. Had I not,I would have wound up in therapy years ago.
I feel sorry for Neverthesame's loss. I've been there myself,twice. A single birth and twins. As a result i'm fully aware of how easy it is to let yourself sink into that abyss of grief and self pity and drown. Those feelings are normal,to an extent,but then you need to get up and start living again. At times that might take someone else to tell you to get off your a** and get over it. Sure,for someone who has never been there,it sounds cold as hell. It's not.
Yep,equating birth to rape,that really got to me. Have you ever had to deal with a woman who has been raped? So scared and in so much pain physical and emotional that they're barely human? Try having to handle it when the victim is a child. That has to be the worst because they're so quiet. Kids are not supposed to be quiet.
I've never been raped but I have dealt with the aftermath. In no way is it the same thing as a bad birth experience.
If my attitude upset anybody,i'm sorry. But don't tell me i'm coldhearted,far from it.
You need to also consider that emotion doesn't really convey well in written form. Not all of us are professional writers.
I'm far from cold and I am not without compassion. In the course of my life and partly due to my former profession I have developed a certain hardness. Had I not,I would have wound up in therapy years ago.
I feel sorry for Neverthesame's loss. I've been there myself,twice. A single birth and twins. As a result i'm fully aware of how easy it is to let yourself sink into that abyss of grief and self pity and drown. Those feelings are normal,to an extent,but then you need to get up and start living again. At times that might take someone else to tell you to get off your a** and get over it. Sure,for someone who has never been there,it sounds cold as hell. It's not.
Yep,equating birth to rape,that really got to me. Have you ever had to deal with a woman who has been raped? So scared and in so much pain physical and emotional that they're barely human? Try having to handle it when the victim is a child. That has to be the worst because they're so quiet. Kids are not supposed to be quiet.
I've never been raped but I have dealt with the aftermath. In no way is it the same thing as a bad birth experience.
If my attitude upset anybody,i'm sorry. But don't tell me i'm coldhearted,far from it.
Thanks very much for clarifying. I'm very sorry to hear about your lost children, I can't imagine going through that, myself.
I am in total agreement with you regarding the "rape" issue. I think you're very courageous for dealing with people (and especially children) who've gone through that. Again, something I freely admit, I don't think I'd be able to do. I couldn't deal with all the heartbreak, and the anger towards the scum that would commit such an act against another human being. It does explain a lot about your reaction to certain posts.
I also sympathize towards the women who have had horrific experiences at the hands of bad doctors - I wish they'd found another way to express their anger over it, though. Calling it rape is wrong on many levels, and people might actually take their grievances more seriously should they pick a less controversial term for what they've been through. I think some people who have a genuine story that should be addressed are going to be scoffed at instead of recognized, all because that word was chosen - to be inflammatory on purpose, IMO.
So thanks, it was good of you to apologize - I'm sorry as well if I went at you a with a bit too much gusto - I tend to read CD late at night when I'm overtired and can be a little oversensitive to stimulus at that time.
You're right though, sometimes blunt and cold-hearted can appear to be the same thing on the internet, and while you're definitely the former, I don't think you're the latter.
The easiest way to dilute any reaction to a real horror is to label everything a horror. When everyone who gets even a bit cross is called Hitler, the real one just becomes a silly man with a goofy moustache. Likewise, when we call everything unpleasant "rape", we needn't, as a society, be outraged by the actual occurrence.
A very wise statement indeed. Thanks for bringing this to the forefront.
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