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Bill, duly noted.
The Giants defense played exceptionally well and no doubt were a huge reason the Giants won.
Do you think that Rivers playing for a West Coast team that has made little noise in Jan will have an effect? Being on the East Coast, i rarely watch Rivers or the Chargers play. They simply are not the Game of the Week most weekends. So unless they are prime time, i don't see him play.
Simply comparing Rivers to Eli...
Rivers regular season numbers are clearly better than Elis.. but does Eli's post season trump Rivers regular season? I think they could and just might... coupled with the East Coast/West Coast bias.. assuming you even think that exists! Millions of viewers and HOF voters watched Eli play exceptionally well on at least 2 occasions on the biggest stage. Rivers has not been afforded that opportunity so those same voters are likely looking at only Regular season stats for Rivers. In the end, that eye test, that moment in the spotlight that Eli had x2 vs no such moment for Rivers would be the deciding factor for me.... In the end, both could get in or both could not get in and it wouldn't bother me. I do think the NFL tends to enshrine too many players into the HALL. It gets a bit watered down when your selecting 5-10 players ever year. Still, i wouldn't argue against any one thats in or soon to be in.. not my place.
I could see Rivers getting in over Eli if both slip out of the modern era to the senior era selection process. I think the appeal of post season success will have slipped from the minds of the voters and they will simply be looking at pure stats by then.
Bill, duly noted.
The Giants defense played exceptionally well and no doubt were a huge reason the Giants won.
Do you think that Rivers playing for a West Coast team that has made little noise in Jan will have an effect? Being on the East Coast, i rarely watch Rivers or the Chargers play. They simply are not the Game of the Week most weekends. So unless they are prime time, i don't see him play.
Simply comparing Rivers to Eli...
Rivers regular season numbers are clearly better than Elis.. but does Eli's post season trump Rivers regular season? I think they could and just might... coupled with the East Coast/West Coast bias.. assuming you even think that exists! Millions of viewers and HOF voters watched Eli play exceptionally well on at least 2 occasions on the biggest stage. Rivers has not been afforded that opportunity so those same voters are likely looking at only Regular season stats for Rivers. In the end, that eye test, that moment in the spotlight that Eli had x2 vs no such moment for Rivers would be the deciding factor for me.... In the end, both could get in or both could not get in and it wouldn't bother me. I do think the NFL tends to enshrine too many players into the HALL. It gets a bit watered down when your selecting 5-10 players ever year. Still, i wouldn't argue against any one thats in or soon to be in.. not my place.
I could see Rivers getting in over Eli if both slip out of the modern era to the senior era selection process. I think the appeal of post season success will have slipped from the minds of the voters and they will simply be looking at pure stats by then.
Neither of them are locks. Eli's book is pretty much written, there's nothing he can do to enhance his candidacy. Rivers' candidacy hinges on a successful, deep playoff run...
Eli is too boom and bust, very average quarterback playing in a QB-friendly era. Never a Top 5 QB, never really Top 10, either. Eli's career is characteractized by having bursts (3-4 games) of elite level play, followed by droughts (6-8 game stretches) of mediocrity. His mediocre play had far exceeded moments of brilliance...
You take away the two SB runs, he's 0-4 in the playoffs. He caught Lightning in a bottle twice. Granted, I would agree he was the best offensive player for the Giants on those runs, and he absolutely made plays worthy of greatness and HOF consideration. The question with Eli is, do his two SB runs outweigh his largely average to mediocre career throughout the regular season and his other postseason appearances?
For me, they don't. He was never a "great" player, just someone who could be very good and got hot at the right moments...
Conversely, Rivers is better than Eli on every aspect of quarterbacking besides postseason success. To me, he can't finish his career with a losing playoff record and just one conference championship appearance, no Super Bowls. This is tough but it's how quarterbacks are graded. He's been a Top 10 QB essentially his entire career, with intervals of Top 5 consistency. But he's crumbled in big games, including big regular season games that his team had to have. That is a bad look, but it's the only thing prohibiting his HOF bid. He will lock in his bid with one truly great postseason, but he cant be rewarded for being a great regular season QB. A lot of guys were that at different times...
I'll take Rivers over Eli, especially if Rivers wins a Super Bowl, but I'll take him now. Rivers' highs are way higher than anything Eli did besides the Super Bowls, and Eli's lows are way, way lower than anything we ever saw from Rivers!
Is it me or how/why is Rodgers considered top 5? Drew Brees is in the Top 5 all-time in career winning percentage while Rogers is 19th. Rodgers ranks 1st in passer rating but has thrown nearly half as many passes as Brees, and is still barely ahead of him at 103.1 versus 97.8. Rodgers is also more of a system QB like Peyton who excelled in the three to five yard sideline throws versus a far more aggressive offense that Sean Payton employs. My theory is that Brees should be working harder for more TV commercials which are obviously paying off exposure-wise for players like Rodgers and in the near past for Manning.
103.1 vs 97.8 is not a slim margin in the context of an entire career. There are other factors though that one could point to as to why Rodgers has such a high career QB rating va Brees and other greats.
1. Rodgers didn’t rack up a lot of attempts his first few seasons in the league. Had he played right away like Brees his career rating would surely be lower.
2. Rodgers didn’t become a full time starter until the 2008 season. Somewhere around 2007- 2009 would be the time when I would say the game stated to change to where we started to see QBs in general throw for more yards and play more efficiently. So Rodgers benefits from having played his entire career in tha era whereas guys like Peyton, Brady and Brees did not.
I wouldn’t call Rodgers a system QB at all. If they are running a system in Green Bay it doesn’t seem to be a very good one. I would say a team like New England runs more of a defined system.
103.1 vs 97.8 is not a slim margin in the context of an entire career. There are other factors though that one could point to as to why Rodgers has such a high career QB rating va Brees and other greats.
1. Rodgers didn’t rack up a lot of attempts his first few seasons in the league. Had he played right away like Brees his career rating would surely be lower.
2. Rodgers didn’t become a full time starter until the 2008 season. Somewhere around 2007- 2009 would be the time when I would say the game stated to change to where we started to see QBs in general throw for more yards and play more efficiently. So Rodgers benefits from having played his entire career in tha era whereas guys like Peyton, Brady and Brees did not.
I wouldn’t call Rodgers a system QB at all. If they are running a system in Green Bay it doesn’t seem to be a very good one. I would say a team like New England runs more of a defined system.
This is excellent!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle19125
Is it me or how/why is Rodgers considered top 5? Drew Brees is in the Top 5 all-time in career winning percentage while Rogers is 19th. Rodgers ranks 1st in passer rating but has thrown nearly half as many passes as Brees, and is still barely ahead of him at 103.1 versus 97.8. Rodgers is also more of a system QB like Peyton who excelled in the three to five yard sideline throws versus a far more aggressive offense that Sean Payton employs. My theory is that Brees should be working harder for more TV commercials which are obviously paying off exposure-wise for players like Rodgers and in the near past for Manning.
I always said Rodgers was overrated, I swear to God I was saying that 4-5 years ago. He is not a better player than Brees. Peak to peak, I think you can make an argument for either, and while they have a different style, both of them at their bests are comparable...
The differentiators are 1)Brees has been consistent for longer, 2)Rodgers consistently had a better team around him, 3)Brees is more durable, 4)Brees appears to be a better leader. When you start comparing the best of the best, those things stand out to me. I think Brees has more postseason success with some of those GB teams, Brees doesn't get injured, and I think its inarguable he's been better for longer...
Rodgers is more flash and Brees is more substance...
Come on, man. Ben over Rivers easily, Ben would be #5 of this generation (last 20 years).
Top 10, 2000 to 2017
1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Brees
4. Rodgers
5. Ben
6. Rivers
7. Ryan
8. Favre
9. Warner
10. Wilson
Top 10, 2010s only (2010-2017)
1. Brady
2. Brees
3. Rodgers
4. Ben
5. Ryan
6. Rivers
7. Manning
8. Wilson
9. Romo
10. Luck
I decided to break it down. The league the guys play in today is stylistically different from the league Rivers entered in 2004, different rules, etc. So truly, this isn't the same "era" as that league. But I guess it could be deemed the same wider era...
I normally like to evaluate guys after a full season is complete, but I'll say this, Brees, Rivers, Wilson, and Luck all can potentially enhance their legacies with how they've played in 2018. But as is, my evaluations are largely through 2017...
Rivers misses the Top 5 of either topic as is. This decade, I think Matt Ryan has been more consistent, but again, pending the finish, Rivers can enter the Top 5 in both. Rivers' legacy, 15 years in, is riding on how he finishes both this season and his career. I don't think one Super Bowl pushes him ahead of Ben, but I think it's an extraordinary debate. To me it's not even a topic if he can't even make it to a Super Bowl, given that generally Ben has played better on big stages...
If Brees wins another ring, he becomes debatable with Brady as greatest QB if the 2010s, though I might still lean Brady. And even though I think overall, he is as talented as Brady, he can't catch Brady in accomplishments. But another ring would leapfrog him over Manning to me, he's stealing all of Manning's records, he beat Manning face to face in the Super Bowl, he'd be undefeated in the SB and tied with Manning in rings, etc...
The difference with Brees is his legacy is already established as a Top 3 QB of this era (some would put Aaron above him, I guess), already established as Top 10 All-Time. Rivers is questionable as even Top 5 of his era, let alone wherever his All-Time rank is, so he has a whole lot more riding on his legacy for the next month and a half, and how he finishes his career...
Brees vs Rivers is never really a thing. It would be an awesome Super Bowl. A ring for Rivers wouldn't catapult him to Brees' level...
If Rivers were to have a Joe Flaco esq postseason where he plays out of his mind and the Chargers beat Ben and Steelers, Brady and the Pats and finally Brees and the Saints in the Super Bowl that would certainly catapult him near the top 3 IMO and would cement his legacy as one of the All Time Greats during his ERA... might catapult him to first ballot HOFer..
Big Game Phil took himself out of the MVP race with that vintage performance last night in prime time. LA wins that game, puts pressure on KC to win today or LA takes control of the division. Granted, Rivers has won a couple critical games this year, but even in those wins he was mistake prone. If the Chargers fall short of the Super Bowl this year, it will be because Big Game Phil has reverted to his mean...
There is no question to me that for the length of their careers, Roethlisberger is the greater QB. I can buy the argument that Rivers is more of a QB talent, and Ben this year has been really streaky, but over the course of their careers he has delivered way more in clutch moments than Big Game Phil. It isn't even close to me!
Rivers is 5-5 all time playoffs and 0-7 versus Brady overall. He has to win this game. There is pressure on every player and team in the postseason but Rivers has to start winning these games...
Outside of Brees' 2009 SB season, he is only 4-6 all time in the playoffs (7-6 overall). His legacy is really firm but the only way he gains ground on Manning and Brady in the public eye (because I already view he and Manning as neck and neck) is to cap this year with another ring...
So Rivers is 5-6 in his playoff career. Here's how his postseason career ranks versus the other Top 10 quarterbacks of the last 19 seasons (2000-2018):
Every player besides Rivers has been to at least one Super Bowl, and at least two conference title games. Everybody. Ryan has played one fewer game, but besides him, Rivers has the lowest career playoff win percentage. He doesn't have a single memorable postseason moment besides beating the Bengals in a Wild Card game and being hurt in 2007...
I'm really thinking about reevaluating Rivers against Ryan. Ryan has an MVP, been to a Super Bowl, played on Championship Sunday more than once, won a conference title, has been an All-Pro, has just as many playoff appearances as Rivers (6) though Rivers has a four year head start, and has just one fewer division title (Rivers 4, Ryan 3). This thread should really be asking Rivers or Ryan, as Brees is in an entirely different class than Rivers...
Some guys just can't get it done in the playoffs. If you don't think Matt Ryan is a Hall of Famer, who has had as prolific a career as Rivers, there's no way Rivers is. Likewise, if you feel Rivers is a Hall of Famer, give me an argument why Ryan isn't, after 11 completed seasons in Atlanta. Maybe we all overrated Rivers the entire time, that was a classic Rivers face plant at Foxboro on Sunday...
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