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I don't blame poor people who are doing the best with what they have. And there is no question that some circumstances like illness make it difficult for one to get ahead.
I don't feel sorry though for people who make poor choices, and then later complain about their life.
For instance, I know a couple of sisters who took different paths in their life. Sister 1(living in poverty) has two children with someone who is a marginal individual at best, so it has been difficult for her to get out of poverty. Sister 2 goes to college, establishes a career, then gets married and has children. Sister 1 complains about sister 2, but yet sister 1 is the one who made the poor choices.
For as much as we talk about external factors, how do we account for situations like the one I just shared. I know more than one situation that is similar to the one above.
What I've learned coming from a financially messed up family is that everything in life is a choice. When you make the wrong choices, they have consequences. And you need to make the right choices especially when it comes to your finances. You need to think and use common sense. Coming from my childhood, I have a very different outlook now on poor people. I used to think everybody that's poor didn't want to be or was there because they simply ended up on hard times. I'm finding out now that many people make illogical and ignorant choices with their finances and their lives and then are surprised and blame others when they end up broke. If I think about the many stupid choices my mother made with her finances that could have kept us from losing our homes, I can get angry. These were simple choices that any person with a lick of common sense and care about her kids could have prevented. That's why I don't look at "poor" people (at least in this country) with as much sympathetic eyes as I once did.
Some are choices, some are not. Example--people can lose everything with a medical problem and no insurance. That's not a bad choice, people get layed off, fired, can't find work. They're not to blame.
Some are choices, some are not. Example--people can lose everything with a medical problem and no insurance. That's not a bad choice, people get layed off, fired, can't find work. They're not to blame.
Getting laid off, having medical problem, etc is not exclusive to the poor. I learned from my father (he was on crack, but he made sense when he was sober), "A job is less important than the skills you had to get the job". A lot of people look at jobs, and not enough as skills. They define themselves around what particular job they have or what company they work for, but not the skills needed to get them there. When you're all about skills and less about a job, position, or title, then that is the one thing that always remain valuable. People who can't survive a layoff, and can't get back in the workforce generally have an out of date skillset. It's no ones fault but their own that they aren't not doing what is necessary to compete in the market. It's like going into the battlefield without any weapons.
no one said that getting out of poverty, let alone staying out of povery is easy. But when you give it 110%, yeah it's not too hard. you just have to work, be smart, and pay attention to the market. In my field, IT, keeping up with market demands is critical.
Anecdotal, "I made it so can you!" is the biggest farce we have going in this country.
So your anecdotes about people who cannot be blamed somehow have validity, whereas opposite anecdotes are the "biggest farce"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upstate Nancy
Some are choices, some are not. Example--people can lose everything with a medical problem and no insurance. That's not a bad choice, people get layed off, fired, can't find work. They're not to blame.
They may or may not be to blame. Suppose someone is fired, or laid off, because they have been irresponsible vis à vis their job? Maybe they habitually showed up late, or maybe they are just slackers at work, or maybe they lack all self-control and start needless arguments with co-workers, thus disrupting the workplace?
This matter will never be resolved because there are so many people of both types! This thread could have 1,000 posts of anecdotes and counter-anecdotes (all of them true and accurate) and the matter would not be resolved. The posters would be jumping all over the anecdotes which do not support their own point of view. The truth is there is no way to make an accurate statement about the "poor" and the reasons why they are poor because poor people - and the reasons they are the way they are - are too varied (diametrically opposed, often) to lend themselves to generalizations. Let's face it:
1. Many people have suffered from difficult and tragic circumstances - debilitating illnesses and other things - and when we look at those people's circumstances we have to admit (if we are honest) that, but for the grace of God, there go we.
2. Many people are poor because of being spendthrifts, living only for the present day, laziness, irresponsibility, wastefulness (smoking, for example), and various other shortcomings. And it is all too easy to want to place them in category number 1 above in order to deny the existence of category number 2.
The only argument would be about the percentages in each category, and that is not answerable either.
Most people who've lost jobs since the economy turned sour are not "lazy" types or irresponsible slackers. It's a circumstance happening at some level to all of us. Some have been hit hard, some medium, some less. Or, if you have a pre-existing, you can't get insurance and can end up poor! Easily happens. I'm not about to blame anyone for being sick, but I'm sure there are those who will. There are those who end up "poor" through choices, of course. I just don't think it's the majority. And, a good amount of these folks have grown up in families who are screwed up, don't have skills, don't teach their kids how to live and get skills, blah blah. Some can turn it around, but frankly, if you are in dire poverty, do you think you really could turn it around? I know how hard it is to try and stay middle class!
Most people who've lost jobs since the economy turned sour are not "lazy" types or irresponsible slackers. It's a circumstance happening at some level to all of us. Some have been hit hard, some medium, some less. Or, if you have a pre-existing, you can't get insurance and can end up poor! Easily happens. I'm not about to blame anyone for being sick, but I'm sure there are those who will. There are those who end up "poor" through choices, of course. I just don't think it's the majority. And, a good amount of these folks have grown up in families who are screwed up, don't have skills, don't teach their kids how to live and get skills, blah blah. Some can turn it around, but frankly, if you are in dire poverty, do you think you really could turn it around? I know how hard it is to try and stay middle class!
First, you made a blanket statement (in a previous post) that people who lost their jobs are not at fault. Then I challenged that by saying that some unknown percentage may very well be at fault, as many people are fired for good cause. So now you back-pedal and admit that well, some of them may be at fault. However, I am with you to this extent: Since the economic downturn of 2007/2008, the percentage of people who lost jobs through no fault of their own is considerably higher than it was before that. But that percentage still remains impossible to determine.
Broke is a state if finances, poor is a state of mind. I grew up in a family that was always broke, but we' ve never been poor. There's a big difference. When you're poor you accept your situation, and when you accept something you stop trying to better yourself. I come from a family that always taught me to excel and never give up. That's why I grew up to find some level of success. That plays a big factor in success. I know plenty of people who have more skills than me, but they never try because they've convin ed themselves that its not worth trying. As a result their situation never improved, and never will unless they change their mindset.
This is a blanket statement and is not fair nor does it apply to every person who is poor...broke.
It is to say that those who are poor/broke have just given up. Wrong! Some people never give up, just like you, and STILL they can't seem to get a piece of that damn elusive pie.
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Originally Posted by RazorRob305
You do have to have a changed minset to have an opportunity at change, but I also think other factors come along with whether or not change comes to the situation. Such as opportunities, health situations, the amount of people you may have in your support system. There are lots more I could think of. In my situation there have been lots of twists and turns and factors as to why I remain at this level. For someone to simply say my mindset is the problem, is just not true because the complexity of each individual's life is on different levels, and I beleive that God has people at certain levels in life to reach the people at that level. If 95 percent of humanity was successful then how would anyone reach the lost souls that belong to the 5 percent? I beleive through my experiences that God places us where we need to be used. Sometimes no matter how hard you try to do things your own way or follow your own plan, he has other plans for your life.
I firmly believe that what I bolded is the BIGGEST difference between those who can get there a little easier than those who work at it their entire lives. If you have NO support, NONE, (think of all those little things that you may have taken for granted that WERE supportive of you), it is doubly difficult to work your way up.
I can only say that you couldn't be more wrong, DEMONSTRABLY wrong. Many decisions that affect every part of a person's life are completely out of their hands - for instance, a corporation's decision to lay off a large number of people.
Agreed. But if you position yourself strategically and live comfortably beneath your means, you can survive a layoff. Heaven knows, I've survived plenty of lost jobs. (That's why I started my own business.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelo129
Illness can wipe out a lifetime's earnings in a very short time, whether you are young or old. A friend of mine had testicular cancer and must be treated periodically for the rest of his life, out of his own pocket because his insurance was capped. Did he make a decision to have cancer?
I did say there are exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelo129
A client at my place of work was hit by a drunk driver who had no insurance. Did he decide to have the driver hit him? A member of my family was laid off at a job where he'd worked for eight years and received nothing but praise for his work - until they didn't want him anymore. The minimum wage job he managed to get after almost a year of being unemployed (and applying to EVERY job he saw) has no health insurance and he cannot pay for his own, so he has lost his house in order to pay his daughter's uninsured medical bills. Did he make a poor decision in working at a Fortune 500 corporation for eight years? Did he "decide" to lay himself off?
See above.
However, the person who worked for the Fortune 500 company for 8 years probably could have squirreled plenty of money away for the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelo129
People with your particular delusion are fond of pointing out that there are lots of jobs in the newspapers and "help wanted" signs at businesses. A family member who owns a small business in a town with a population of about 6000 recently advertised for part-time help. He received 312 calls and applications for a single job. So how many of those people went away without getting a job? I'll leave you to do the math. You're full of assumptions, and almost all of them are wrong. But that's ok - I've known plenty of other people like you, who felt absolutely certain that they would never be booted out of the middle class because they'd made all the "right decisions". In the last year, three of these people, in their forties, have lost everything and gone home to Mom and Dad. One other is living in a friend's garage.
So just because you happen to know plenty of exceptions, means that the rule doesn't apply?
This is what most people in society think, but it's frustrating when people say this and it happens not to be the case.
Just as one should not throw every case of poverty into one category, neither should one assume that no one is poor by their own volition.
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Why this argument will NEVER be resolved
