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Does this stuff really really affect normal well functioning men? Is this really a deal breaker with average everyday normal men, not the guys here, of course, but the normal men out there???
I am attracted to intelligent, curious women, which means they are fairly self sufficient and empowered and assertive ... not demure wallflowers. But I came of age in the 1970s, toward the tail end of the old-fashioned nuclear family, AND I am not that quick on the uptake, even for a man, when it comes to dropped hints and the cross-currents and undertows in relationships. And in my experience even intelligent women are for some reason terrific at expecting you to read their minds or to not take their casually cutting remarks personally, etc.
As a consequence I rather miss that I can't function under the expectations I grew up with, which is that men and women had fairly well-defined roles. There was in those days no real question, except maybe the beginnings of some ambiguity in urban areas, whether you open the car door, pay for the food on a date, and a host of other things. I don't really NEED to open the door or pay for all the dates, but it was just nice to have a clear starting point at least. It was nice to not have to negotiate default roles because it's frustrating enough for us guys just to stay out of relationship trouble as it is.
Of course when I became an adult, the one-income family was already disappearing, which had far more to do with economic realities than with feminism, and many other changes were afoot. Another really fundamental change is that I think there was an implied social contract earlier in the 20th century, of fairly long standing, that when two people agree to start a family together, they are committed for the long haul, through thick and thin. Today I see much less loyalty and devotion, much more willingness to cut and run (and, in some ways worse, to talk about and threatening cutting and running) at the first sign of difficulty. People seem unconcerned about serial relationships and don't consider them a sign of personal failure. Maybe they shouldn't. I personally think we've lost something there though.
It is safe to say that my relationship with my current S.O. (wife #3 after a divorce and being widowed, and #3 comes from a very liberal background compared to my family of origin) does not remotely resemble what I envisioned in my callow youth. It is not bad, just different. Life experience has made up for the changes and I think I negotiate them well. But I pity youngsters today. Everything is negotiable, even sexual orientation and gender identification. I have no idea how they navigate those waters in practice.
This is all from the perspective of a somewhat geeky, not terribly socially astute individual from a sheltered upbringing. Your mileage can and will vary. Doubtless whatever disappoints me about committed relationships is all my fault somehow. But I throw it out there for whatever it's worth to anyone.
Not a man but I'll answer. Clearly some men are threatened by women's independence as they now have to bring more to the table than just money, and some people are just not up to the task!
This is the reason our society is becoming more feminist..
No, I'm not threatened by women at all. The main reason is that women are often their own worst enemies. They have a tendency to overthink decisions and they also have a very strong tendency not to get along with other women. Also, in my experience, most women are more comfortable following than leading.
The woman that doesn't have these traits will go far, but they are not the norm.
No, I'm not threatened by women at all. The main reason is that women are often their own worst enemies. They have a tendency to overthink decisions and they also have a very strong tendency not to get along with other women. Also, in my experience, most women are more comfortable following than leading.
The woman that doesn't have these traits will go far, but they are not the norm.
I know plenty of men who overthink decisions. In different ways, perhaps, and for different reasons, but they do it nonetheless. I definitely know men who are their own worst enemies too.
I will agree though that women are terribly competitive and hard on each other; the old fashioned term I believe was "catty". But I see even that as an artifact of their objectification by a patriarchal society. In some alternate universe where men were just as judged by their appearance and fashion sense and makeup and sexiness and just as body shamed for not being perfect, I suspect we'd be just as cutthroat. And not in the way dudes will often kick each other's butts in an argument and then go out for a beer afterwards in this universe. It would be the same response to an existential threat that women often perceive from each other. We men get cut a lot of slack that women don't. "Boys will be boys" sort of establishes it. It is women who are put on pedestals and worshipped as goddesses, then discarded when they don't perform. No wonder they're so complicated and men are so simple.
I am with a very capable professional woman with her own opinions, very strong, and while she doesn't need to be lead she appreciates leadership in areas that don't interest her or that she actively dislikes (finances in her case), and she appreciates protection in those rare cases where she's assaulted socially. She sort of likes that Italian "ya gotta problem wit my woman? Maybe ya wanna talk ta me aboudit" vibe. Only comes up once every few years ... but my point is even the husband of a liberated woman gets to be a cave man once in awhile. Main problem for me is I'm slow on the uptake; the sorts of things that threaten her I would barely register and tend to deal with by ignoring the insult as beneath my dignity to address. This to me is the main difficulty with ANY woman, independent or not: divining / anticipating their emotional responses, needs and expectations. I have literally been praised for precisely and exactly the same behavior I've been condemned for on a different day when the wind is blowing in a different direction. It's all about context and their emotional climate at the time. Compared to any woman I've ever been with, I'm an emotional flatliner. Stimulus A always results in response B. And no, I'm not just talking about what you women THINK I'm talking about ;-)
There is a very obvious "double standard " at many work places.
When those 70 pound boxes of copy paper are delivered to the front desk area, guess who is told to carry it to the storage room ? It isn't going to be the cute little Vassar graduate is it ?
When the chit hits the fan and the boss says "we need four people to work on this until it is done, ever if it takes until midnight "........Guess who will be saying " Oh I can't stay, my kid has ballet , and I have Yoga, too".
Now lets go over to the local coal mine, and take a head count of how many of those miners are female ? Not many. And where are all the female sewer workers, I want to know ?
And finally, lets go into the local college classroom. and listen to the "women's studies " course leader, who is busy telling all the young women that " they can be anything that they want to be ". As long as it doesn't involve actual physical WORK, or getting your hands dirty. After all we have the "knowledge generation " now, don't we ?
My 13 year old Grandson has just completed his grade 8 year. At the graduation, all 32 kids were asked to get up and say "what I want to be when I become an adult "..... I kept track, and none of them was going be anything except a Doctor, Dentist, Engineer, Vet, Lawyer, or University Professor.
Not one of them was interested in being a "trades person " But guess what most of their Fathers do for a living ? Yes they were mostly the guys who DO get their hands dirty, and they are the ones who those kids will expect to pay the freight for them to become " a clean hands executive ".
And some women wonder why some men, like me are laughing at them.......
Jim B.
You're right, there is an awful double standard. It's virtually impossible for women to get jobs in very physical occupations and the trades, and if they do the appalling unending sexual harrasment generally drives them away.
No, I don't feel threatened by gender equality, I support it. My supervisor is a woman, and the 2 people I directly support, or "work for" if you will, are both women. Not sure why this would bother me at all. They're both older and more experienced than me. And both are competent at their jobs which is the only thing I really care about if I'm working with someone.
Guys who feel threatened by women receiving equal treatment are probably not that confident in their own set of skills or work ethic. It's like they think that the world has reserved a job just for them and they're going to get it handed to them simply for being a man, but now with more women entering the work force one of them might get it instead. Well, if one of those women is more qualified for the job then she should have it. What's unfair about that?
Also in regards to double standards in the workplace, both men and women are affected. As a guy you'll be expected to do most of the physical work. Case in point - when I worked at a Home Goods store, I was unloading the truck, building furniture, hanging rugs, carrying items out to people's cars, and getting paid the same amount as girls who sat at the cash register all day. I didn't mind it at the time because I loved the job, but realistically I was working much harder than them while getting paid the same. On the flip side of that coin though is that one of the girls who worked there was willing to take rugs down for customers or carry furniture outside, but people would freak out about it and force a guy to help her. This went for both customers and other employees, all of them thought she was incapable of doing it on her own. So it's a question of which would you rather have - would you rather be expected to do certain tasks because of your gender, or would you rather be thought of as incapable of doing those tasks because of your gender?
I've had some great female bosses, and I've had some female bosses that could have been great if they would have managed differently. I'll be the sucker that makes this a debate here.
To me, I think the problem with some, generally weaker leaders, is that they don't want a strong male report. My wife and I did an experiment in her store about a year ago. She's run her own store for 12 years now, so her customers are used to dealing with her. Yet, a slim majority of the customers came in saw me and her, assumed I was in charge, and would ask me, or even ask me to ask her. We spoke with those that had been customers awhile, and when they realized what they'd done it was a bit eye opening for them, and we'd get a good chuckle and move on. It was almost like a What Would You do Segment, but with no cameras. At another company I was at, operations management was downright slovenly in their dress code, and I was hauled in to meet a visiting customer simply because I kept a professional style of dress. The problem was that the group from Europe kept wanting to negotiate with me instead of my boss. In an audit in China I was the only male and the most junior level person on a 5 person engagement. The client continuously wanted to address me.
So my hypothesis is that some women managers have a problem with me based on looks. I constantly need to go above and beyond to demonstrate reinforcement that they are the leader and I support them. I have to spend time explaining motives for actions taken.
I've had great female bosses and terrible male bosses as well, but it seems like the only times where I've gotten unique treatment/standards was when my boss was female. It's happened enough where I wouldn't call it the majority, but enough that I know make correspondence a must ask question in all interviews (male or female).
Are men really this threatened by women having equal access, things that are stipulated by the various waves of feminism. Are we as men really all that threatened by a woman that is equal to us?? Are we really that threatened by it, I ask because I see a plethora of threads that seem to indicate that us knuckle dragging men can't or won't function if a woman is somehow near or above us??
I've never worked in a situation where a woman was my supervisor, I feel like I could be ok with it, I feel like it would be fine.
Does this stuff really really affect normal well functioning men? Is this really a deal breaker with average everyday normal men, not the guys here, of course, but the normal men out there???
I'm guessing that the bolded is why we disagree so much on these forums.
A good portion of my bosses and the people that I've worked with are women (I work in health care) and, quite frankly, the vast majority simply make terrible business decisions. They tend to either be massive micromanagers or have no concept on how to run things. They can be great workers and subordinates, but I wouldn't trust them to run a company.
I've also had female commanding officers when I was in the military and, aside from a butch lesbian (who was fantastic), they have all been disasters as leaders.
I can only think of one normal woman off the top of my head that I've ever met in my life that I'd be comfortable going into business with (meaning that I feel like she would contribute a lot and not be an incompetent owner).
It has nothing to do with being intimidated. They're just not very good at these kinds of things (for the most part).
I'm guessing that the bolded is why we disagree so much on these forums.
A good portion of my bosses and the people that I've worked with are women (I work in health care) and, quite frankly, the vast majority simply make terrible business decisions. They tend to either be massive micromanagers or have no concept on how to run things. They can be great workers and subordinates, but I wouldn't trust them to run a company.
I've also had female commanding officers when I was in the military and, aside from a butch lesbian (who was fantastic), they have all been disasters as leaders.
I can only think of one normal woman off the top of my head that I've ever met in my life that I'd be comfortable going into business with (meaning that I feel like she would contribute a lot and not be an incompetent owner).
It has nothing to do with being intimidated. They're just not very good at these kinds of things (for the most part).
This is where I have to disagree with you, once again.
These were just individual women who made bad decisions. Don't generalize all women.
I'm guessing that the bolded is why we disagree so much on these forums.
A good portion of my bosses and the people that I've worked with are women (I work in health care) and, quite frankly, the vast majority simply make terrible business decisions. They tend to either be massive micromanagers or have no concept on how to run things. They can be great workers and subordinates, but I wouldn't trust them to run a company.
I've also had female commanding officers when I was in the military and, aside from a butch lesbian (who was fantastic), they have all been disasters as leaders.
I can only think of one normal woman off the top of my head that I've ever met in my life that I'd be comfortable going into business with (meaning that I feel like she would contribute a lot and not be an incompetent owner).
It has nothing to do with being intimidated. They're just not very good at these kinds of things (for the most part).
You sir shall be knighted "the vagina deficient one...." and no one will be shocked.....
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