Incel group on TV (characteristics, anxiety, therapy, men)
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Also, as pointed out, there's the concept of "ladies' man." When framed like that, it's absurd to deny there's a type of man that most women would like to be with; therein the gist of incel complaints is accurate, that they apparently are unwanted for who they are.
I'm not quite sure whether I should ask for a hashtag irony, or just giggle.
These guys who will get with a 2-3 in order to bump their status with the 6s, who will by social proof decide they're do-able so then these guys will begin to get enough of a following to finally land the 8-9s via negging and various tricks, are angry that they aren't wanted for who they are?
Of course all women would want the most charming and handsome man...but the vast, vast majority of us date and have sex with the others. The fact most men would want Ariana Grande and most women George Clooney doesn't affect who we actually date. To claim they can't get laid because all 300 girls in the senior class are having sex with the football team is ludicrous beyond belief.
I don't know many men who are raving about Ariana Grande (and George is old and a married dad now). Guys who think all the reasonably attractive females and a few homely ones are with Chad have warped thinking. It's more likely that some are with rather average guys and others are holding out for better. But they're probably not with or willing to be with bottom-tier males, yeah. Are the unhappy men truly lost causes? Some are, some aren't, I suppose, but if they've given up, it's irrelevant for them personally while perhaps significant for the dating market.
But maybe just as ludicrous as some distorted incel beliefs:
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On the other hand, there were many guys who I think could be Incels today, who didn't notice "leagues". They spent all of high school carrying books and acting subservient for a "Becky" who never returned their feelings, and dismissing the girls in their league who they could have dated, then left high school as virgins, feeling ripped off.
Or the post above this.
People are ranting about what they think the opposite sex is doing, with very little evidence thereof, apparently to justify hostilities. It irritates me.
Last edited by goodheathen; 10-25-2018 at 01:51 PM..
The many online dating experiments make that implication unlikely to be true. Yes, women often are turned off by profile text and even will spurn good-looking guys whose written words hit the wrong notes. But women are human and have a baseline level of physical attraction (almost nobody thinks "yuck" and gives that person a try). Hence, many men do badly on sites like Tinder where it's almost entirely about pictures, as backed up by stats about a high percentage of men who there get few or no matches. There's also a growing percentage of the younger population that rarely if ever has sex.
Among people under age 40, if a man falls into that category of generally physically unattractive to most women, it's probably harder for him to fix that than it is for a female peer. My impression is that a significant percentage of incels don't measure up in looks and they don't have the bold, outgoing personalities that can somewhat compensate. Incel groups are a thing because the Internet has enabled men to get together and learn things, mostly true, that can be very demoralizing. Can you blame such a man much for being bitter?
Well, would you hold it against a woman if she was was bitter? How attractive is "bitterness" in a woman? If you begrudge bitterness in women, you have to begrudge it in men.
Men can do things to improve their looks. They can improve how they move and carry themselves by working out. Even if they aren't athletic, they can work out. They can also get better haircuts, dress better and learn how to use facial hair to their advantage. But most importantly, they can put themselves out there socially, learning how to communicate well. They could also improve their inner life by learning some new things, or becoming a member of a group.
It is really hard for me, a woman who navigated the territory of unattractiveness many years ago, to have a lot of sympathy for these men, who feel so entitled to certain things as if they deserve whom they consider to be the best women. I mean, they haven't exactly made themselves deserving, have they? Their sense of entitlement is mind boggling.
I don't know many men who are raving about Ariana Grande (and George is old and a married dad now). Guys who think all the reasonably attractive females and a few homely ones are with Chad have warped thinking. It's more likely that some are with rather average guys and others are holding out for better. But they're probably not with or willing to be with bottom-tier males, yeah. Are the unhappy men truly lost causes? Some are, some aren't, I suppose, but if they've given up, it's irrelevant for them personally while perhaps significant for the dating market.
But maybe just as ludicrous as some distorted incel beliefs:
Or the post above this.
People are ranting about what they think the opposite sex is doing, with very little evidence thereof, apparently to justify hostilities. It irritates me.
That's not a distorted incel belief, I have known these guys. There were guys who had crushes on me, too, not because I was hot (I was cute but not hot) but because I was the girl who went out of the way to be nice to kids who were left out. Some boys would end up thinking it meant I was attracted to them. They'd go overboard trying to turn it into something no matter how obvious I made it I didn't feel the same way. In the end they'd be enraged at me for not returning their feelings, so that's what I get for being nice, lol.
But I saw these kids myself. I have always been more of an observer than a participator, and I saw it happen, saw kids who had an infatuation with one of the girls in the running for "Best Looking Girl" in the yearbook who were actually mean to "regular" or unattractive girls who liked them.
Also, your statement that women aren't coupling up with "bottom tier" men completely dismisses that there are "bottom tier" women, too. I'd be willing to wager Whoopie Goldberg wasn't exactly fighting guys off in high school.
BUT most people couple up anyway. Go to Walmart or Disney World or just about anywhere and sit on a bench and watch people come and go. There are a LOT of "bottom tier" people looks-wise, yet they have found partners and husbands and wives.
Most guys I've dated with the exception of one long term relationship, were probably a tier below me, cause my personality is too nerdy and weird for the tier my looks put me in, lol.
I wouldn't want much interaction with a noticeably bitter woman, but I wouldn't assume she's a terrible person for it. Women shouldn't do that with men who seem "incel."
Men almost have to work out. Some men are badly balding - they're probably significantly disadvantaged to most young women. Some men are just short or the 'wrong' race, those realizations being I suspect why incel groups are so angry. Basically no corresponding issues for women.
Body language? Good point - more guys should read up on that. Being more social, smart in theory, not as easy to do successfully. Places that actually teach adults social skills? Well, that's why scammy dating coaches are able to lure customers. Women are generally more socially adept and yet when it comes to dating less required to be socially adept. If a woman seems pleasant, it's good enough.
To me, what's "mind boggling" is the notion that incel men feel entitled to much of anything. I don't see real-life, non-insane or not-joking-around versions of them. Men aiming too high on dating sites isn't the same thing as entitlement.
We want a person who attracts us, and who has whatever combination we're looking for - like bright and funny, or hardworking, or...whatever, but the "Chad" bro-type motif makes any woman I know pretty much barf.
Poor Chad. The incels skewer him, the actual women (v. made-up motif women) don't want him. Won't somebody think of the Chad???
There is a dangling chad joke in there somewhere, you know.
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Originally Posted by goodheathen
Spoiler
Years ago, I knew a guy named Chad. He was like the stereotype. Also, he was pleasant to talk to.
When people feel the need to put words into others' mouths, it's on them. I know I specifically mentioned some personality factors. Of course there are some men who look good enough but fail miserably for other reasons.
Also, as pointed out, there's the concept of "ladies' man." When framed like that, it's absurd to deny there's a type of man that most women would like to be with; therein the gist of incel complaints is accurate, that they apparently are unwanted for who they are.
But hey, with my educated guess of up to 20% of men under age 40 rarely or never dating or sexually involved with anyone (other than prostitutes) - not that more than a tiny percentage of them join incel groups or call themselves incel - dismiss or be hostile about the issue and see how well that goes. Things have already gotten bad enough between the sexes that many young women are finding that many men would rather watch porn than have real relationships with them. Maybe some of the nicer types of guys are dropping off dating sites, too.
Ah yes, there's that other idea that comes from the Incel clubs. "Women are sure gonna be sorry, when all us nice men have given up!" Right... I am sure that's how it will be.
But somebody else mentioned charm... looks and/or charm, I believe it was. Yeah, charm. I might not be one to chase looks necessarily but charm is yummy, I can't lie. It's why my celebrity crush is Jeff Goldblum. The man, 66 years old and charming as can be. The sheer optimism and sunniness of him. *le sigh* There is a man who tap dances through life singing to strangers. Glorious human being.
That's not a distorted incel belief, I have known these guys. There were guys who had crushes on me, too, not because I was hot (I was cute but not hot) but because I was the girl who went out of the way to be nice to kids who were left out. Some boys would end up thinking it meant I was attracted to them. They'd go overboard trying to turn it into something no matter how obvious I made it I didn't feel the same way. In the end they'd be enraged at me for not returning their feelings, so that's what I get for being nice, lol.
But I saw these kids myself. I have always been more of an observer than a participator, and I saw it happen, saw kids who had an infatuation with one of the girls in the running for "Best Looking Girl" in the yearbook who were actually mean to "regular" or unattractive girls who liked them.
Okay, if you say so. Though I don't believe the part about carrying belongings to impress someone, a behavior I'd have laughed at even as a rather shy teenager.
Anyway, you're talking about teenagers. Except maybe for school shooters, the idea of teenage incels is kind of irrelevant and silly, to where in online groups older, struggling guys ridicule it. People grow up. Most adults know not to hold out for way better than they have to offer.
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Also, your statement that women aren't coupling up with "bottom tier" men completely dismisses that there are "bottom tier" women, too. I'd be willing to wager Whoopie Goldberg wasn't exactly fighting guys off in high school.
Even as a star, she might have had long dry spells.
I alluded to women who are not "reasonably attractive." Some won't get attention in normal circumstances. However, I've seen data from academic researchers with I guess too much free that shows (if I remember correctly) that in all young age groups, females are on average rated more attractive than males. So there aren't as many ugly women is the logical conclusion.
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BUT most people couple up anyway. Go to Walmart or Disney World or just about anywhere and sit on a bench and watch people come and go. There are a LOT of "bottom tier" people looks-wise, yet they have found partners and husbands and wives.
Part truth, part wishful thinking. Some of them coupled up when more attractive, and it's harder for almost everyone to get into relationships nowadays. Also, many of the ugly people aren't out and about much, and that batch likely is unattached.
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Most guys I've dated with the exception of one long term relationship, were probably a tier below me, cause my personality is too nerdy and weird for the tier my looks put me in, lol.
Probably irrelevant, but I think you're right and that is one way in which it's not unreasonable for guys to expect a little better than what they are.
There is a dangling chad joke in there somewhere, you know.
Ah yes, there's that other idea that comes from the Incel clubs. "Women are sure gonna be sorry, when all us nice men have given up!" Right... I am sure that's how it will be.
I knew it sounded like that when I wrote it, but what incels say usually has some truth behind it. I don't think any men are giving up in order to spite women, but if many of the gentler types are giving up, it seems like a problem to me re some women's prospects. Porn addiction is a big problem out there, and I must assume it sometimes develops in guys who are single and lonely. I truly believe the unhappy-single-guy budding epidemic is already adversely affecting women. However, I don't expect anyone in this type of discussion to care about anything that doesn't personally affect him or her.
I wouldn't want much interaction with a noticeably bitter woman, but I wouldn't assume she's a terrible person for it. Women shouldn't do that with men who seem "incel."
Men almost have to work out. Some men are badly balding - they're probably significantly disadvantaged to most young women. Some men are just short or the 'wrong' race, those realizations being I suspect why incel groups are so angry. Basically no corresponding issues for women.
Body language? Good point - more guys should read up on that. Being more social, smart in theory, not as easy to do successfully. Places that actually teach adults social skills? Well, that's why scammy dating coaches are able to lure customers. Women are generally more socially adept and yet when it comes to dating less required to be socially adept. If a woman seems pleasant, it's good enough.
To me, what's "mind boggling" is the notion that incel men feel entitled to much of anything. I don't see real-life, non-insane or not-joking-around versions of them. Men aiming too high on dating sites isn't the same thing as entitlement.
Women can't be the "wrong" race? Are you serious?? Women are too prejudiced to date outside their race, but men aren't? Are you kidding me?
You don't think overweight women are at more of a disadvantage than a balding man? Again, are you kidding me??? You don't think girls who are 6' tall (but don't look like models) are at a disadvantage? Big noses? nothing?? Men don't care about any of this, it is only young girls who are shallow?? Again, are you kidding me??
I can give you a long list of bald men who do great with women, btw. And I think men are "allowed" to be a bit overweight, while women are not.
Again, when you say "men have to work out....can't be balding" etc, you seem to be giving the criteria to date a Becky, again totally overlooking the fact that there are just as many unattractive girls as guys.
I knew it sounded like that when I wrote it, but what incels say usually has some truth behind it. I don't think any men are giving up in order to spite women, but if many of the gentler types are giving up, it seems like a problem to me re some women's prospects. Porn addiction is a big problem out there, and I must assume it sometimes develops in guys who are single and lonely. I truly believe the unhappy-single-guy budding epidemic is already adversely affecting women. However, I don't expect anyone in this type of discussion to care about anything that doesn't personally affect him or her.
I actually think it contributes to them needing a woman who looks a certain way, and sets up those expectations because the hot girls in those movies are often with average looking guys.
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