why all this hate against Incels ? (problems, men, dating, woman)
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Go outside, find the most unattractive women you can.
Approach them and create some small talk.
Ask for their number and set up a date.
Do the same for online dating.
After a few dates, invite them to your house.
Cook / Order food. Watch netflix (preferably something scary)
Put your arm around them.
Tease them a bit.
Give them some compliments.
If she seems to be into it, go in for the kiss.
If she reciprocates the kiss, escalate unless she tells you no or to stop.
Thank me later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74
so this is a very interesting example here, because there is clearly a disconnect.
Bravarianpaisa's advice taken by AAL as "generic advice for getting laid" when it's really a short hand description of the normal progression of a dating relationship, including getting to the point of initiating some unspecified degree of physical intimacy. Going on a few dates is how people get to know each other. And after a few dates, there should start to be some physical contact to make sure that there is a physical attraction. "A few" can be 1 or 2 dates for some people, maybe ever 5 or 10 for others, but certainly "a relationship with all of the trappings" is going to include sex and this is the normal progression to get there.
And it's not even saying that sex is going to happen the same date as inviting the person back to your home. Maybe it will be a kiss or two and a little bit of cuddling. Maybe it will be more. But you can keep going one step at a time. If you ask for another date after there has been a little kissing, it means she enjoyed it and is receptive to having that continue, and presumably, over time, increasing just how much intimacy there is.
Relationships don't start off fully formed, and dating is a time honored way to figure out whether or not there is "decent chemistry and commonality."
But even to humor the OP and try to give a kinder interpretation to someone who is frustrated by a lack of a romantic relationship even if not an incel (and at least based on this thread, I would not categorize AAL as an incel), there is still a disconnect between reality and expectations.
Emm74, did you miss the very salient part of Bravarianpaisa's comment? I think it changes the nature and intent of his advice.
Emm74, did you miss the very salient part of Bravarianpaisa's comment? I think it changes the nature and intent of his advice.
I did miss that part, but ignoring that, the rest of it is pretty standard behavior for a newly dating couple.
And of course that part is why incels are a real thing, because they do think that they are entitled to date any woman they consider attractive but don't believe women have the right to not be attracted to them.
At this point if someone chooses (and it is a choice) to identify himself as an incel, he has to accept the history of the term, and the history is ugly. It's not his religion or ethnicity. It's not what might be a 1500 year family legacy. Nothing is gained by voluntarily applying that term to himself. If he's looking for kindred spirits who struggle with dating, there are other places to look that don't have at least a loud minority of people advocating legalizing rape, celebrating or at least justifying the murder of women, fetishizing underage girls, and generally describing women as amoral scheming jackals. Just tolerating that crap shows a painful lack of empathy and self respect.
Incel has a specific meaning and it can't be rehabilitated. Why try?
Now, if you asked whether or why men who struggle socially are looked at suspiciously or contemptuously by some men and women, this would be a different discussion.
All those points are spot on, but the last comment leads me to ask "just where do those 'different discussions' take place?"
My experience has been that every thread on the Internet veering anywhere near the topic is 'converted' to an incels discussion, thus ending any chance of rational discussion. BTW, I am not blaming either "side" for that.
Due to the nature of my work I have met a lot of Incels in the last fifteen yrs , not sure why they are hated and reviled so much in media.Yes some have become very violent and nasty but vast majority of them are just average frustrated young men who due to their insecurities or lack of confidence have hard time maintaining any relationships.Many of them are pretty good looking and have decent personality otherwise too
I think this community needs a LOT of help psychological and social networking help, i also see a lot of women too who have given up on relationships so not sure where the disconnect is and how we can help these women and incels connect? why is this not already happening
Any support groups dedicated specifically for this ? I mean social group that helps incels connects with single women and vice versa ?
They are hated because an incel is not just some dude who cannot get laid, they are dudes with mental issues, especially towards women, and who think they should be with a top 10% woman/woman of their interest, and if the women are not, automatic hate towards them and all women. The dudes who are with these women are known as "Chads" and incels hate them as well.
See, any of them can get laid, either by paying or dropping their standards, but they want the ten percent/target of their desire, and they are angry when they do not get it.
I met several when in the Navy, though the term was not known to me at the time or popular, that is exactly what they were, and quite frankly, screwed in the head, disgusting mental cases.
Re: Taking matters into their own hands...I've said it a couple of times: Palmela Handerson doesn't say "I accept your humanity and masculinity, and I value your time and company."
Re: Sexless women are probably not involuntarily so, yes, and that's the key difference, isn't it? I'd posit that most sexless men are involuntarily so.
Re: Psychology and social impulse, yeah, I completely agree with you. I never said that it was a merely a simple biological function. I said that it starts as a biological function. Like I said, there are endless layers of ego and superego on top of that particular desire-of-the-id...but nonetheless, it does originate in primal instinct. It can be suppressed, but not superego'd away.
I'm really not sure at this point what you're getting at with the validation. Yes, I get that I should be a whole, complete, valid human being all cozily wrapped up in myself, and I should be totally emotionally self-sufficient and should never feel pangs of pain shooting through my heart when I think of the experiences in life I'd love to have but which are as of yet inaccessible to me, and that this pain in my soul makes me a Lesser, Broken Human and actually makes me less attractive. I get it. I'll rest on the notion that someone for whom food has usually been maybe a short wait away (should they even want it) doesn't have much to teach those starving in a famine about hunger.
Re: Difference between affection and sex, I totally agree, which is why I said "affection" and not "sex." For me the desire to...be hugged, have my hand held, have someone lay their head on my shoulder, to have someone snuggle into me during a movie or church or whatever, are just as powerful as my desire to boink...and totally separate, as well.
Another reason Palmela Handerson makes a terrible girlfriend.
What I bolded...please don't think all sexless women are voluntarily so. When I was divorced, I went loooonnnggg and I mean LOOONNNNGGG periods of time without sex. And there were periods of time where I was QUITE horny, lonely, etc.
We're not all Venus, the goddess of love and beauty, who can just snap our fingers and make it happen.
All those points are spot on, but the last comment leads me to ask "just where do those 'different discussions' take place?"
My experience has been that every thread on the Internet veering anywhere near the topic is 'converted' to an incels discussion, thus ending any chance of rational discussion. BTW, I am not blaming either "side" for that.
I agree that the discussion is fraught. People who struggle socially are sometimes to blame. But sometimes they're not. Not in the sense that it's their fault. Still, that's a classic case of "It's not your fault but it is your responsibility", to grow or manage or accept yourself and your challenges. In a cruel twist, people, men or women who come to strangers on the unfiltered internet to discuss their social struggles are seldom good at self development or self management or self acceptance.
If seldom means never.
And I do think men's emotional struggles are often shortchanged, in part because men tend to fear seeming soft and so express their sadness in angry terms, or fear feeling vulnerable and so find an enemy. That makes their pain harder to listen to and I don't excuse their part in creating the difficulty. But a lot of their audience arrives with assumptions about men that don't help.
And not uncommonly the rest of us respond by saying or implying something like "get over it" or "man up", even when we dress those phrases in evening wear.
To be balanced, there's not a lot of passes given to women who complain here either. I think there's a bit of benevolent sexism that looks like a pass though and that sometimes keeps their threads from imploding. But the biggest sex difference seems to be that women are more likely than men to seek out therapy and they also tend to have better support from friends and family, so we see less women complaining here. Big tip to men; seeking out therapy when you're hurting and building a better support system are really good ideas.
That's at the heart of it. The men who call themselves incels on the internet aren't just regular dudes going through a rough patch romantically. They have maladjusted ideas about women and sex and relationships. They feel entitled to women's bodies and their time, and they want to make women pay for not giving them what they want. This is not the kind of person that a well-adjusted woman who's bowed out of the dating market because of her own frustrations wants to be matched up with.
Actually I think the frustration most start with is they TREAT women nice and watch guys who TREAT women like crap have no trouble getting women, I treat women well but I'm relationship challenged in recent years even though I can get women to date or sleep with me relatively easy. I'm tall and in shape but not much in the way of disposable income so I'm viewed on the level of "okay until something better comes along" the only reason I'm not an incel is do to the extra points I get from being 6ft5. but there is a saying among them "he's on BJ away from leaving the movement"
I knew an incel who is not one anymore, he inherited an old farmhouse from an uncle who never had kids, it's in un incorporated county land that's nearest town(10 minute drive) is a hunting, fishing, resort town where most of the people who live in the town permanently are old retired couples and single women of all ages who work in the 3 hotels, 2 resorts and 6 restaurant's plus the bowling alley, 4 bar's and other businesses in the area(those places tend to hire mostly women). now he is not an angry incel because all of a sudden he has a full dance card. he get's dates with women who would not give him the time of day in a larger city with a more even male/female ratio. he is not an ugly guy he was just shy and kinda looked like Sheldon from big bang theory. now he was not always an incel he had the same girlfriend all through highschool who lived on his street, then she broke up with him while she was away at college and he was never able to attract another girlfriend until he moved to his present home, and over the years he got more and more bitter, now he has his pick and is not angry anymore. though he may end up being an incel again because another(half hour away) near by city is getting an amazon warehouse and some assembly plant may reopen which will bring jobs to the area and screw up the male/female ratio that's been helping him out lol.
I've been on CD for a decade now, and spent a great deal of that time in the Relationships subforum. Which means that long before ER had the word "incel" cropping up in the media and other folks saying, "have you heard of this incel thing?" I had been interacting with 'em (as there used to be quite a few more back then) online.
Some who technically, I guess, qualify, I can talk to and I feel sympathy for. I still think it's a matter of attitude, but I believe that they are actually capable of the growth (perhaps in time, maybe in quite a lot of time even) that would bring them to a healthy relationship. I've seen it happen in real life, I know it's rare but possible.
Many are sad souls who just repeat the same self defeating things over and over. And some few, are malignant, and even if they are not spouting threats and vileness because it isn't allowed here, you can sense it oozing from between their words.
There is also a set where in a sense of sour grapes (and I guess this is more MGTOW stuff) are not only misogynistic, they are generally anti women and anti relationships and think they have a "movement" that will draw all men away from women, and won't those women be sorry then!? Which amounts to a revenge fantasy, plain and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC
I understand your solution, like what's done on college campuses to have mixers for students who haven't yet found roommates for off-campus housing.
But I can't imagine much success in pairing angry feminists with incels.
That sounds like a joke. Rather than a priest and a rabbi walking into a bar... An angry feminist and an incel log into a chat room...
But I don't know of a punchline that makes it funny.
The summary of that article is perfect: "What incels want is extremely limited and specific: they want to be able to have sex on demand with young, beautiful women. They believe that this is a natural right."
How Lonely Men Are Radicalized Online and Turn Their Rage Into Violence Please actually READ the piece and not just the title thinking you can blame this on loneliness. These are the words of "former Red-Pillers" attesting to the fact that they regarded women as subservient, like so:
Often enough, the sexism and misogyny are already in place. Then incel social media throws gasoline on the embers and warps minds.
You read that right. These guys consider women not having sex with them to be a crime against THEM, the men!
In a conversation after I'd broken up with my Ex but before I got physically away and out (and was in fear of my life and safety, I won't lie)... He said, "Men always want sex. Women are the ones who get to say yes or no. I don't get that. I don't think it's fair. Why should a woman's desire to NOT have sex be more important than my desire to HAVE sex? Why does she get the final word in this conversation?"
Yeah, I could number the reasons why that was a messed up thing to say, but I don't have time.
I'm going out to dinner for my first year wedding anniversary with my SECOND husband. Who is, thankfully, not a freaking psycho.
I've been on CD for a decade now, and spent a great deal of that time in the Relationships subforum. Which means that long before ER had the word "incel" cropping up in the media and other folks saying, "have you heard of this incel thing?" I had been interacting with 'em (as there used to be quite a few more back then) online.
Some who technically, I guess, qualify, I can talk to and I feel sympathy for. I still think it's a matter of attitude, but I believe that they are actually capable of the growth (perhaps in time, maybe in quite a lot of time even) that would bring them to a healthy relationship. I've seen it happen in real life, I know it's rare but possible.
Many are sad souls who just repeat the same self defeating things over and over. And some few, are malignant, and even if they are not spouting threats and vileness because it isn't allowed here, you can sense it oozing from between their words.
There is also a set where in a sense of sour grapes (and I guess this is more MGTOW stuff) are not only misogynistic, they are generally anti women and anti relationships and think they have a "movement" that will draw all men away from women, and won't those women be sorry then!? Which amounts to a revenge fantasy, plain and simple.
That sounds like a joke. Rather than a priest and a rabbi walking into a bar... An angry feminist and an incel log into a chat room...
But I don't know of a punchline that makes it funny.
In a conversation after I'd broken up with my Ex but before I got physically away and out (and was in fear of my life and safety, I won't lie)... He said, "Men always want sex. Women are the ones who get to say yes or no. I don't get that. I don't think it's fair. Why should a woman's desire to NOT have sex be more important than my desire to HAVE sex? Why does she get the final word in this conversation?"
Yeah, I could number the reasons why that was a messed up thing to say, but I don't have time.
I'm going out to dinner for my first year wedding anniversary with my SECOND husband. Who is, thankfully, not a freaking psycho.
I was married to someone who basically said the same thing, Sonic. He said, "It's not fair. Women get to say 'no' to sex, but men can't say 'yes' to sex. It's not fair, it's not fair, IT'S NOT FAIR".
I said, "O.k. A homosexual man wants to have sex with you. Should you be allowed to say 'no'?" He said, "That's different". I said, "No, it's NOT. Just because SOMEONE wants to have sex with you, do they suddenly have that "right" to do so?"
He never quite understood that each person owns their own body, and that their body is their property....and that EVERYONE has the right to decide if it's o.k. for someone else to 'trespass'.
The point is, that your husband (and mine) have the same RIGHTS. *I* have the right to say 'no' to sex.
And, so does HE. So, it's not as if you or *I* have more "rights" than THEY do.
An angry feminist and an incel log into a chat room...
But I don't know of a punchline that makes it funny.
An angry feminist and an incel log into a chat room. "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," types the feminist. "Go die in a fire," types the incel.
Haha! Get it?
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