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OK so I have this calculus going on in my head and can't really come up with a solid conclusion...soooo since the fine folks here @city-data were so helpful with this thread , I figured I'd throw out my question here .
BACKGROUND
So as you may or may not know my familiy is considering a move to the Triangle. My wife and I took a trip to the area a couple weeks ago and were quite thrilled that the area might fit our interests/lifestyle. So, the general thumbs-up/thumbs-down was a success! I even spoke with my work about the possibility and they are going to support the move if I decide to do it which is pretty cool and does relieve some stress.
As you also may or may not remember, we currently live in Alexandria,VA. We like living in a diverse, densely populated area. This is for all the usual reasons as well as maybe some other things like the fact that our neighborhood feels more "authentic" than some of the other subdivisions in the DC area. This might be an arbitrary description but I'm going with it. We like the 'community centered around main street' type developments (where we live now) but those only seem to exist as old neighborhoods or brand new developments (new urban this and that). The fact that you can still smell the paint drying in these subdivisions is what I mean when I say "authentic" or lack there of.
Of course the downside to our current neighborhood is that it is insanely expensive to live here. We are on one income right now (my wife stays at home with the kids) and it is a constant stress. Not to mention, we've found it is difficult to develop more significant relationships with people where we live. People are all very nice and welcoming but it always seems like people have somewhere to go. It's hard to explain but this is one of the reasons we'd like to potentially move to a place where everyone isn't obsessed with their job and the first thing you ask someone isn't "what do you do?". DC is notorious for this fact.
DISCLAIMER
First of all, I'm sure I have many incorrect assumptions below so please tell me where I have it all wrong.
THE ACTUAL QUESTION
What do you really get/give up by living in the city vs. suburbs in the Triangle?
Housing --
It seems like there are fewer benefits to living ITB than living in a place like Alexandria. For our price-point (400s for 4+ BR), it doesn't seem there are many places available in the inner neighborhoods for that price. We could spend a bit more but we currently live in an old house where we can't afford to perform constant repairs which is frustrating. It seems like the real bargain is to buy a run down small house and either knock it down or renovate extensively. At that point you kind of lose the "charm" of some of the old neighborhoods it seems.
Of course if we opened our search a bit to inner suburbs to places like North Hills, Brookhaven, or Renaissance Park, it appears there are an abundance of places available in our pricepoint while still being quite close to everything. Am I wrong? It seems like since the ITB neighborhoods don't really have major places for walking with the family and no major public transit then these inner suburbs are effectively the same as the ITB neighborhoods.
Taking it a bit further, if we looked in Cary or Morrisville (those places did not appeal to us on our trip), we could buy just about anything and only sacrifice a few minutes here and there getting to things.
At the end of the day, if we are going to have to use our car to get everywhere anyway, then why not take advantage of the cost different in housing by finding neighborhoods that aren't nearly as expensive as the exclusive ITB ones.
Schools --
Doesn't seem to matter much if using the three categories I use earlier (ITB, inner suburb, cary/morrisville) as it matters much more the specific community one lives in.
Culture and Food --
Similar to the housing thing, it appears that you only tradeoff a bit of time living downtown vs suburb getting to cultural events. The fact that there isn't major public transit in the city and traffic isn't bad, it only takes a bit more time getting to places in and around the Triangle for events.
Kids --
We haven't found enough information yet about the extent of families actually living ITB vs suburbs but our expectation is that we can find kid-abundant neighborhoods ITB, and the further out we go, the more homogenized we get. That is obviously balanced against the fact that we have kids and want to make sure they have an enriching childhood with other children around IN the neighborhood they can play with ,etc. Not to mention the ammenities the suburban communities offer for kids (saw a picture of Amberly pool/water park looking thing in Cary and was astounded).
Growth --
This is a big mystery to me. Where is Raleigh likely to grow in the next 10-15 years? What do the city plans say for how downtown and the inner suburbs are going to change? We read about Renaissance Park and how there is some hope that the area around it will grow but at this point its not great. Any prognostication by anyone on how/where the area will grow in the next decade?
To be honest, this is hard for us and we're just conflicted. These tradeoffs of proximity, cost, and support for our kids are obviously very common for people in our situation but being so far away from the Triangle makes it very hard to make educated decisions so any help would be great! Thank you to everyone in advance!
*sigh* I always read these posts and have the same reaction -- it is fine for to come on here and ask for other's opinions but there are SO many variables that none of these questions can really, truly be answered. Of course there are neighborhoods ITB that are diverse, kid-friendly, close to everything -- and there are neighborhoods in Cary, Apex, Morrisville etc that are also. But when you are picking a house and moving onto a block YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW who your neighbors will be -- will they be friendly and welcoming, maybe looking for some new connections? Or maybe they'll be friendly but pretty much into doing their own thing. We've lived in a few metro areas up and down the east coast -- in one neighborhood our block was just a quick 'hi-how-are-you' block and and the next block over was famous in town for the number of get-togethers, the kids playing outside etc. It's really a crapshoot.
That being said, we lived in NVa and I can tell you from our perspective this is nothing like that. Raleigh is really like a pretty big spread out suburb. Yes, there seems to be a bit of life downtown -- if you're a 20-something who maybe wants to hit the bars etc. If you head downtown on the weekends you won't really find much going on -- yes, there are museums etc but it's just lacking the vitality that you'll see in DC, Philly, NY etc.
You are thinking about making a HUGE decision -- and yes some folks make the move and LOVE it -- others move and, eh - not so great. You need to decide if you want to make the move away from friends, family and take that chance.
It seems like since the ITB neighborhoods don't really have major places for walking with the family and no major public transit then these inner suburbs are effectively the same as the ITB neighborhoods.
I think your assessment of ITB is off a bit. I have had folks come from DC that moved to the area with a family and like ITB very much because it does have restaurants, parks, and shopping close by. Maybe you searched a different part of the area, but I think Cameron Village, Five Points, Oakwood and the Hillsborough neighborhoods ITB are the most popular. Transit is relatively good in these areas as well. I know it isn't as much as the DC area, but I haven't really heard anyone having difficulty in this particular area of which I am speaking. Plus there are some parks that are in various locations ITB. Maybe this link might help you a little. http://www.walkscore.com/NC/Raleigh
Yes, I think North Hills is another excellent location along with Brookhaven and close enough to be walkable although I think (imo) North Hills would be a better fit your family.
It just depends on what is more important to you. More inner city type of living, or more affordability and larger yards. I do think a car is important because even if you can get around in the city (ITB) you will still want to have transportation otherwise. It just depends on how far out you would want to venture.
Our area will continue to grow quite a bit, but what is planned verses what will actually happen is something I wouldn't even want to try and comment on. Things are always changing. However we are growing our greenway system (great for the bicyclist and walkers).
it is fine for to come on here and ask for other's opinions but there are SO many variables that none of these questions can really, truly be answered. Of course there are neighborhoods ITB that are diverse, kid-friendly, close to everything
hopefulx3 -- Don't get me wrong, I completely understand these things. What I'm trying to get at is whether the value of living in the city is as high as we are used to compared to the penalty you pay by living in the suburbs. For example, it is my opinion that by living in certain areas in the DC metro area, you place yourself out of what I would describe as high quality of life (long commutes, lack of art and culture without travelling a long way). We know that specific neighborhoods can have wild variables that can make the difference between us being happy or not (I'm not that naive .
So hopefully this clarifies what I'm getting at. In DC, where you live modifies your quality of life drastically and is a critically important if you have more of the city-esque interests, you HAVE to live in the city.
Things are always changing. However we are growing our greenway system (great for the bicyclist and walkers).[/font]
Thanks Janecj,
What exactly do you mean by "greenway" system? Other than the mental image that term gives me, what does it mean exactly? Does that mean reserved space that is to not be developed?
Thanks Janecj,
What exactly do you mean by "greenway" system? Other than the mental image that term gives me, what does it mean exactly? Does that mean reserved space that is to not be developed?
Yes, essentially that is what it means. They are continually adding trails to get to one place to another by means of bicycle or walking.
Here is a map and a little more information.. you can google it and find more.
I wouldn't describe anywhere in the area as a 'city'. As you say, it's a choice between slightly more and slightly less dense suburbs.
OK, thank you! I knew I shouldn't have written that long post at 6am! Essentially the premise of my question is what CHwboy states and the implication is that there is far less of a trade-off by being in the less dense suburbs. Am I right?
*sigh* I always read these posts and have the same reaction -- it is fine for to come on here and ask for other's opinions but there are SO many variables that none of these questions can really, truly be answered. Of course there are neighborhoods ITB that are diverse, kid-friendly, close to everything -- and there are neighborhoods in Cary, Apex, Morrisville etc that are also. But when you are picking a house and moving onto a block YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW who your neighbors will be -- will they be friendly and welcoming, maybe looking for some new connections? Or maybe they'll be friendly but pretty much into doing their own thing. We've lived in a few metro areas up and down the east coast -- in one neighborhood our block was just a quick 'hi-how-are-you' block and and the next block over was famous in town for the number of get-togethers, the kids playing outside etc. It's really a crapshoot.
That being said, we lived in NVa and I can tell you from our perspective this is nothing like that. Raleigh is really like a pretty big spread out suburb. Yes, there seems to be a bit of life downtown -- if you're a 20-something who maybe wants to hit the bars etc. If you head downtown on the weekends you won't really find much going on -- yes, there are museums etc but it's just lacking the vitality that you'll see in DC, Philly, NY etc.
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Yeah, I agree. I live in Cary and even in my neighborhood, where houses rarely go on the market and then get snapped up quickly, one side of the nabe is considered more "social" than the other. Maybe it's the layout of the streets, who knows. It was the same for my sister when she lived in NJ - she actually moved one block over to be on the better street! You really can really drive yourself crazy trying to pick the perfect neighborhood that way.
I also agree that Raleigh is a lot of suburbs -we drove around ITB for the first time the other day and aside from being astounded at the beauty of the houses and land, we were struck by the fact of how close we were to the actual "city center".
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