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It could have been worse than that and still sold higher. It would've been a good deal as a total gut and re-do with structural work as well.
Like I said, It might be kosher, it just smells funky to me. I can't say I'm surprised there's a bunch of realtors jumping in with the usual talking points. And making a few assumptions that don't quite pan out...
Is the argument really that if you don't submit an offer on a house before it goes on market, you're too slow?
So I'll just say this: I've met and worked with a few good realtors, they just seem to be an extreme minority. Back when I worked in residential architecture, it was a pretty common occurrence to get a call from a couple that was under contract on a beat up house, and they wanted to talk to an architect and contractor about options and budgets. We'd go out to the house, and inevitably there would be a sentence like "our realtor said we could fix it up for $XXX,000 and move in in a few months." At which point contractor and I would exchange piteous glances, knowing that wouldn't even get them half way there.
It happened over, and over, and over. So maybe I'm a little suspicious of realtors.
And I'll mention: People my age and younger get really turned off by the old-style sales models and techniques, we just roll our eyes when people try to "develop" us as a lead. This way of doing business is going to get harder as my generation gets older and becomes more and more of your clients. You win our business by having for sale what we want to buy.
You said it WAS on the market.
Now you say it wasn't on the market?
Which is it?
Yes. I have written offers for clients for homes that were not on the market. And sight unseen. And they speak well of me.
And this property is STILL on the market, according to the sketchy facts presented. So, write a back up offer.
People of my skills get turned off when people of any age under 200 cry "ethics" illogically and "see" issues all around due to unfulfilled sense of entitlement even after mature people offer free and reasonable explanations..
And superb advice, to boot, like "Write a back up offer." A sincere buyer would have done that by now.
Same old talking points, same entitlement:
"Ethics! Cheaters! I didn't get what I want!"
For those of you that seem to think I'm butthurt and whining over not getting a shot at the house, you're really, really missing what I'm getting at here.
I'm annoyed because:
A) The seller is likely out a lot of money they could have very easily had.
B) That money likely will go to the listing agents buddy when he flips the house.
C) This appears to be part of a larger dysfunction in how the real estate market works.
Does everyone understand that it's a fairly dysfunctional market that, you know, isn't actually a market?
Edit: I love that you're all assuming we didn't offer to submit a backup offer...
For those of you that seem to think I'm butthurt and whining over not getting a shot at the house, you're really, really missing what I'm getting at here.
I'm annoyed because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
A) The seller is likely out a lot of money they could have very easily had.
Prove it?
What is the market value of the property in light of specific conditions of the property?
What are the price and terms of sale? Not list price, which is not relevant other than it piqued your interest in the property, but the contract price and terms.
What are the owner's carrying costs, note, and motivation to sell?
Factual answers to these questions will help you prove your unsubstantiated assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
B) That money likely will go to the listing agents buddy when he flips the house.
Prove it.
How much money?
Will the buyer invest money into the home to improve conditions?
Again, how much money?
What conditions of the property will require investment to make it resell at a higher price?
Is the seller capable of or willing to make those improvements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
C) This appears to be part of a larger dysfunction in how the real estate market works.
Prove A and B with specifics, and C may follow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
Does everyone understand that it's a fairly dysfunctional market that, you know, isn't actually a market?
Lemme see. Buyer agreed to buy. Seller agreed to sell. Spurned party is miffed to be out in the cold. Sounds like any market I have ever heard of.
Everyone has grasped that you are surely butthurt and projecting.
At this point, there is no proof offered of any of the spurious accusations, and no evidence that one could assume that any could be forthcoming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
Edit: I love that you're all assuming we didn't offer to submit a backup offer..
I would not "Offer to submit a back up offer." I would write a formal back up offer and submit it.
I AM assuming that you did not "Write a formal back up offer and submit it," based on that last statement alone. Why "Offer to Offer" when one who is serious would "Offer?"
I would not "Offer to submit a back up offer." I would write a formal back up offer and submit it.
I AM assuming that you did not "Write a formal back up offer and submit it," based on that last statement alone. Why "Offer to Offer" when one who is serious would "Offer?"
To be clear: I asked if we could submit a backup offer, the response was "its sold"
I entered the real estate business December 1971 and stayed in it till I retired. I specialized in commercial/investment/farms/ranches. Let me tell you the process that a good agent will follow.
1: List the property, using comps to determine value. You are committed to sell it in as little time as possible.
Put it into the marketing process.
2: Check to see if I or someone in my office, has a potential buyer looking for a property like this.
3: If you are any good, and have been around a while, you talk to other Realtors all the time. If no one in your office has a buyer, you look into your list of agent/friends that have told you they are looking for a particular type property. you call them and let them know it is on the market.
4: It is not unusual for a hot property, to be sold immediately from #2 and #3, prior to it showing up in the MLS or your web site. By getting a quick sale, you are doing the the correct duty for your client which is the seller.
To do less than #2 and #3, you are not doing your best job marketing the sellers property. Those two steps, help reduce the number of times that the owners have people tramp though their home which they appreciate very much. When it goes on the market most sellers will have taken steps to make the home look as good as it possibly can. Having to maintain it that way for many days, months, and sometimes a year or more is not fair to the client. It is the job of the agent, to sell a property at the selling price as quickly as possible, with the least disruption to the sellers lives as possible.
What the OP is complaining about, shows that the agent is knowledgeable and doing their best job working for the client. He /she was able to get an almost immediate sale.
Remember, 85% of the people that go into the real estate business fail out of the business as they do not make enough sale to support them. Many never make even one sale.
I would almost bet the agent involved in this sale has been around a while, and has a list of other Realtors looking for a particular type property. He did the best possible job, when he was able to call up another Realtor looking for just such a home and get it sold the same day it was listed. That is the sign of a good listing, and is not a pocket listing.
Pocket Listing: A pocket listing is one where you have it listed, or know someone that will sell if they get an offer for their property, and the seller does not want the word to get around it is for sale. I have sold numerous commercial properties and businesses, that this is the only way the seller would let me list the property. They are afraid if the public knows the property is for sale, they will quit doing business with them preferring to do business for people staying in the business. The first time the public would know it was being sold was when it closed and the new owner took over.
Occasionally sellers getting ready to file for divorce, etc., etc., do not want the fact the property is for sale known. They don't want friends and relatives asking them why their house is for sale. They will list with a sales person that they feel can sell their home, without letting the public know it is for sale.
The OP's complaint is not valid. It is clearly the sign that the property was listed with a good agent, that knew some other agent that could sell it immediately, and did his best job for the seller.
In a fast moving market, this is the way things are done, and being done for the benefit of the seller.
Like I said, It might be kosher, it just smells funky to me.
If I were in your shoes, I'd probably think that the deal smelled a little fishy, too. As many of the other agents here have correctly pointed out, it the Sellers responsibility to agree to any price. But some Sellers are not aware of the market value of their property and will rely on an agent for guidance. In those cases, there is always the possibility of some "insider deal" which isn't in the best interests of the Seller. There are not enough facts to determine if that's the case here.
I suppose it's human nature to be suspicious. I know I have my doubts about some agents when buying property for myself--or when serving as a Buyer's Broker. Luckily, in most cases, my suspicions turn out to be unwarranted...but there are those few cases out there which keep those fears alive. Such is life. In your case, it seems that the most telling aspect against this being a shady deal is the fact that the agent told you that it was sold to a business associate. If it were an underhanded, insider deal, why would he even tell you that? (Okay...maybe he slipped.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOD
To be clear: I asked if we could submit a backup offer, the response was "its sold"
They probably know that the buyer has the resources and determination to close, hence the definitive response. They don't want to waste their time or yours. However, if you really want to put in a backup offer, contact a buyer's agent. Once you see the house on the inside (if the Seller wants it shown), you may have a different opinion as to its value...or maybe not.
If the OP feels so strongly that the Realtor in question acted in a "unethical" way, then file an Ethics complaint at the local Board of Realtors. It will go before a Grievance committee (like a "grand jury") who will decide if it should proceed to an ethics hearing with the Professional Standards committee, to which you can attend and provide your facts of the incident.
That's what our Professional Standards committees are for, to punish the bad little Realtors especially when public trust has been compromised. I've sat on ours for years. Not all Realtors are perfect angels.....we as an industry recognize that which is why we have a system set up to deal with them. We surely don't protect them as it only serves to further damage the perception of our industry as a whole.
I will tell you, unless you are not telling some pertinent facts, you wouldn't get past grievance with this.
For those of you that seem to think I'm butthurt and whining over not getting a shot at the house, you're really, really missing what I'm getting at here.
I'm annoyed because:
A) The seller is likely out a lot of money they could have very easily had.
B) That money likely will go to the listing agents buddy when he flips the house.
C) This appears to be part of a larger dysfunction in how the real estate market works.
Does everyone understand that it's a fairly dysfunctional market that, you know, isn't actually a market?
Edit: I love that you're all assuming we didn't offer to submit a backup offer...
You do not know what the contract price is on the house so your first assumption is incorrect. You do not know the needs of the seller. There are many scenarios where a quick sale is more beneficial to a seller than more money: an estate sale or some one trying to avoid foreclosure or bankruptcy are just two.
You do not know the intent of the buyer.
Sellers make the decisions about the listing price and the sales price.
The question that should be answered is, "What is duty of the agent?" Is it their duty get the property sold and close for the owner ASAP. Is it their duty to educate the owner on the value of their property. The seller and their agent should be on the same page although those duties will differ from party to party.
I understand what the OP is getting at and I too have felt the same way about a property that sold. They bought a big 2'x10' banner and I never got a call back from the agent.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there are people that are actually looking to make money on a real estate transaction and there are always people looking to profit off the misfortune of others. An extreme example, is it wrong to sell a coffin to the family of the deceased?
I have made higher offers turned down by sellers, but I understand it, I'll have requirement that the seller might not want, they might make a few thousand more, but it might tie up the property and fall out of contract.
Imagine if the agents responsibility is , "Get the most money from this property for the owner." Let's get past the first conflict, which is, to get the most money for the owner is to work for free. Next, imagine if you are in an appreciating market, which you really don't know until after the fact, would it be the agent's duty to say don't take this offer today because the property will go up .5% next month? Let's add, the owner of the property has an ARM at 3% and market appreciation has been 5%, would it be an agents duty to understand that the seller is making 2% more than their borrowing cost.
The OP felt that something is fishy and the seller had left money on the table, the only way for them to know is to contact the seller, present the information and get the opinion of the seller.
Here is an example of turning down a higher offer. All comparable (20 units in last 6 months) homes have been sold at $399,000 and below. Multiple offers come in at $410 and below, one comes is $430,000. The owners moved and have mortgages totaling $3000 and have taxes of $2000 due in 30 days. Which offer is most likely to close, the $430,000 where there aren't comps to support the price or the $410,000 offer. If the seller takes the $430,000 and it doesn't close, they'll be $5,000 out of pocket, then get negotiated down to $410,000, then end up fronting $8000 hoping to get it back on the sale. The house sits on the market for 30 days, the excitement is gone, the demand has dropped, and offers are only $400,000 and the seller paid another $3000 towards the mortgage.
Check the sale price when it comes available and see how the property did.
Realize many realtors have a list of buyers for specific properties and areas and can go down that list quickly. Some realtors are trusted sight unseen because of the realtionship.
Pocket listings are not in and of themselves bad even if this were a true pocket listing where it was for sale but never on mls and publicly available. I know of several homeowners in a niche market who will tell a realtor or a couple of realtors that if they find someone looking for the specifics their home offers, at their price, bring them by. Otherwise they didn't want to be bothered. Those sellers know the area and know the prices.
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