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You seem weak and weird. You dont seem like you take initiative towards the things you really want and things that mean something to you - like women. People (not just women) dont like people who dont have passion *I dont mean mere desire, I mean a compelling passion*. And you dont seem to have as much passion for any particular woman or even being in any real relationship, as you do for delving into this love shy drivel. I dont think you truly want to be in a relationship.
I think you are here going through the motions of "trying to find out why baa bahh bah baah ba" so that you can just cross this off of your list of failed attempts at improving your dating life: "Welp, that does it, the world is awful and thinks me worthless. Ive tried everything: a dating coach, an online service, Ive made a couple of attempts at relationships and I just cant catch a break. Aww shucks"
Because, I mean seriously? Who goes on for 30 pages about why they cant get anyone to take them seriously in a relationship. Most people who are truly serious about anything (not just relationships) would have pulled the plug at about page 20 and went back out there to start trying to find love again. That is, if they were serious in the first place. I think you've become complacent with failure, and the whole process of "trying". Now youre in the cycle of going through the motions of trying and failing and trying and failing and so forth. Your newest attempt to rationalize your shortcomings thus far seems to be this love shy thing.
I dont consider the 30 dates thing to be any real measure of anything. These sorts of immaterial engagements in which, according to you, you tried ardently to maintain a neutral, easy going, tepid mood, should tell you how risk averse you are. You make it sound like the world would explode if the dates encountered a little tumult. From what Ive read of you, you seem to have a pattern of taking the safe route (internet dating, tepid personality, pleaser, asking for help on an internet forum etc.) Point blank: that is a negative trait - and a major one to boot.
Lastly, as a grown man, you need to drop the nice guy act. I dont care if its genuine or not. Little boys are nice and sweet...As a grown man, you're supposed to have grown out of that. You need to be adult enough to let people know that what you want matters enough that it doesnt matter if others are upset about it. That shows others that you value you and your own first. And people like for men to be selfish - because that lets them know that they can depend on you for their own well being as long as they are in your circle. People like to know that you will take care of the things you are passionate about. One of those things should be yourself. You dont seem like you value yourself enough to even be of much use to anyone else; much less a woman in a relationship. And you dont value yourself because youve never forced yourself to measure yourself.
You sound as if youve lived in a sort of non confrontational comfort zone that has never forced you to be vulnerable enough to discover your value. All you know is that you lost when you tried. But you'll never win if you dont make yourself vulnerable. And rather than allowing yourself to be vulnerable and stepping out of your comfort zone and walking directly up to women and introducing yourself, you'd rather take the safe route, and click around on the internet and wait for it to fail so that you can continue rationalizing your experiences for better or for worse.
By the way, let me just say: I DO believe that the love shy thing exists as a real clinical condition. I think unto itself, it is a very valid condition. Maybe not as a medical condition, but certainly as a clinically psychiatric condition. I just dont think thats your only problem, or even your biggest problem. I think you are in a comfort zone of trying and failure with a dash of cognitive rationalizing of those failures. Course, I could be entirely wrong, but so far thats the impression I get.
You seem weak and weird. You dont seem like you take initiative towards the things you really want and things that mean something to you - like women. People (not just women) dont like people who dont have passion *I dont mean mere desire, I mean a compelling passion*. And you dont seem to have as much passion for any particular woman or even being in any real relationship, as you do for delving into this love shy drivel. I dont think you truly want to be in a relationship.
I think you are here going through the motions of "trying to find out why baa bahh bah baah ba" so that you can just cross this off of your list of failed attempts at improving your dating life: "Welp, that does it, the world is awful and thinks me worthless. Ive tried everything: a dating coach, an online service, Ive made a couple of attempts at relationships and I just cant catch a break. Aww shucks"
Because, I mean seriously? Who goes on for 30 pages about why they cant get anyone to take them seriously in a relationship. Most people who are truly serious about anything (not just relationships) would have pulled the plug at about page 20 and went back out there to start trying to find love again. That is, if they were serious in the first place. I think you've become complacent with failure, and the whole process of "trying". Now youre in the cycle of going through the motions of trying and failing and trying and failing and so forth. Your newest attempt to rationalize your shortcomings thus far seems to be this love shy thing.
I dont consider the 30 dates thing to be any real measure of anything. These sorts of immaterial engagements in which, according to you, you tried ardently to maintain a neutral, easy going, tepid mood, should tell you how risk averse you are. You make it sound like the world would explode if the dates encountered a little tumult. From what Ive read of you, you seem to have a pattern of taking the safe route (internet dating, tepid personality, pleaser, asking for help on an internet forum etc.) Point blank: that is a negative trait - and a major one to boot.
Lastly, as a grown man, you need to drop the nice guy act. I dont care if its genuine or not. Little boys are nice and sweet...As a grown man, you're supposed to have grown out of that. You need to be adult enough to let people know that what you want matters enough that it doesnt matter if others are upset about it. That shows others that you value you and your own first. And people like for men to be selfish - because that lets them know that they can depend on you for their own well being as long as they are in your circle. People like to know that you will take care of the things you are passionate about. One of those things should be yourself. You dont seem like you value yourself enough to even be of much use to anyone else; much less a woman in a relationship. And you dont value yourself because youve never forced yourself to measure yourself.
You sound as if youve lived in a sort of non confrontational comfort zone that has never forced you to be vulnerable enough to discover your value. All you know is that you lost when you tried. But you'll never win if you dont make yourself vulnerable. And rather than allowing yourself to be vulnerable and stepping out of your comfort zone and walking directly up to women and introducing yourself, you'd rather take the safe route, and click around on the internet and wait for it to fail so that you can continue rationalizing your experiences for better or for worse.
By the way, let me just say: I DO believe that the love shy thing exists as a real clinical condition. I think unto itself, it is a very valid condition. Maybe not as a medical condition, but certainly as a clinically psychiatric condition. I just dont think thats your only problem, or even your biggest problem. I think you are in a comfort zone of trying and failure with a dash of cognitive rationalizing of those failures. Course, I could be entirely wrong, but so far thats the impression I get.
That is a very interesting take on this, could very well be true
Sorry, but I simply do not agree with the bolded item above (see also posts #409 and 410). It is your *opinion* that she and I were not in a relationship. Both my opinion (and I strongly believe, her view also, for the time duration in question at least), simply do not agree with your opinion, however. But saying your belief 100 times or so about it, doesn't make it automatically change from being an opinion into being a fact.
Hi - you yourself have stated that you have little relationship experience. I am all for an individual thinking for themselves (), however, a person has to also realize the times that they are wrong. Meeting someone online is great. Even if she agrees with you, you came to this board asking relationship questions from people who are not love-shy. People who are comfortable starting relationships and have been in them for years. If multiple people that you have asked relationship questions to are telling you the same thing, don't you think there may be something to it? I think you want to be in a relationship so bad that you find some sort of comfort in calling this online girlfriend a relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrensmooth
I see that we have found a sensitive spot, you have been pretty open minded to what we have to say UNTIL we discuss the validity of your past relationship status(es). Interesting. When/if you actually have a real relationship you will see that those past online relationships were not the real deal IMHO. Do you know what its like to get into fights? Deal with MAJOR conflict? Actually Meet the Parents of your SO? Deal with money issues? Live together? Actually get past the initial stages of infatuation? My guess is no
ITA. Online dating is a great avenue, however, you do not get to know the real person until you meet them, see them in various settings, and interact with them. Until that happens, often times the person views the online person based on the going ons in their own head. Like a fantasy land. Then they when they meet they see they have built up this person so much and it does not match the real person in front of them. That's why I am an advocate of meeting in person in the early stage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009
What else would you have me do, other than what I've already done? Over the past 1-2 years, I have:
(1) Gone on 30 (unsuccessful) dates over about the past year;
(2) Getting professional therapeutic help;
(3) Tried at least one, maybe 2, unsuccessful long-distance relationships, that didn't work out (and I still strongly disagree with those who said that they "weren't relationships"...again who are they exactly, to make that claim?)
(4) Tried (again unsuccessfully) reading quite a few on-line and printed romance self-help books;
(5) Tried *many* dating sites, both paid and unpaid, sending hundreds if not several thouand messages to potential online matches, with only a handful of responses back;
(6) Hired a dating coach for over a year to try to get personalized help; and
(7) Even paid several thousand dollars, for an off-line, brick-and-mortar LTR-style matchmaking service.
ETA: (8) tried meeting girls in church settings.
Little or none of the above actually worked (with the exceptions perhaps of the professional help I am still presently receiving)...but it's not like I did absolutely nothing...I have *tried* to improve myself, using a variety of different methods described above, over the past 1-2 years. My subsequent failures, weren't for lack of trying, on my part...
ETA: if you believe this particular thread has outlived its inherent usefulness Julia, I have no problem at all about having it closed out, if you think that would be preferable to having it continue unabated. I deeply appreciate your comments, as well as that of everyone who was kind enough to respond and provide feedback
It's commendable that you are trying different avenues. However, you come across very formal. And as one who is not used to face to face social interaction. I'm thinking you give off this same vibe on your dates. Being nice is fine, but mature women want a man whose niceness is complimented by his masculinity. I've read quite a few of your threads and you appear to always analyze/over analyze everything. Also in previous threads I've wondered why you allow people to treat you the way they do. IMO, you need to put trying to date on hold for a moment and concentrate on your social skills. Talking to people. Developing friendships. Learning how to be comfortable around other people. Now, you don't have to stop trying to date for a long time. It's just that I think once you get some friends and are used to friendship banter and seeing people happily want to spend time with you, it will help you loosen up and this new found attitude will transfer over to your dating activities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009
It is almost impossible to make friends at work, just b/c 99.99% of the people there are significantly older than me. The few people who actually are in my age range, am I professionally barred from associating with socially, as they are contractors, of which fraternizing with is a definite no-no, according to our workplace ethics guidelines
Don't get me wrong...I have 2, maybe 3 close, very friendly relationships, with particular co-workers, but they are so much older than me (about 20-30 or more years older), that it can only go so far. Plus, no one does anything with anyone after work hours any way, even regardless of age.
Older people have a wealth of information. Get to know them. They have experienced similar situations and can tell you what they have learned as a result of it. They can give you some insight on what changes would be helpful. You create outings you can attend together. Become friends. Besides many people find romantic partners through their friends playing matchmaker. So you just never know when a friend will say 'hey Knight2009, I know a girl....'. Try to keep up with some of the pop culture. Learn to be interesting. Developing friends is a great starting point.
Yes i think he needs to spend time on himself, there are probably as you say issues that are bigger than just dating, and he is focusing all of his self-improvement on dating aspects. The way he describes social interaction, sounds so scripted and un-natural, im pretty sure the women on the dates he went on felt the same
women dis like shy men because they dont understand them. In essence they fear(hence why shy men are referred to as "creepy") and distrust what they dont know and do not comprehend. thats just the way it seems to work.
You say things like "if we don't like you as a person". How do we know if we do or not? Giving differing opinions than yours does not mean someone doesn't like you. This is not real life anymore than your internet relationship is real. You may not even be the person you profess to be on this forum. Also, you keep asking for advice, but you completely ignore advice that you don't like. I have been in two long term relationships, and I don't mean internet relationships. Since I do have that experience, wouldn't you think I might just know a little something about what it takes to make one work? Also, I am the audience you want to reach, a young, single woman. So, you should listen to people with more experience than you. When I wanted to learn to sail, I listened to experienced sailors....you need to listen to people with relationship experience. I think you just enjoy blaming your shortcomings on something other than yourself.
You say things like "if we don't like you as a person". How do we know if we do or not? Giving differing opinions than yours does not mean someone doesn't like you. This is not real life anymore than your internet relationship is real. You may not even be the person you profess to be on this forum. Also, you keep asking for advice, but you completely ignore advice that you don't like. I have been in two long term relationships, and I don't mean internet relationships. Since I do have that experience, wouldn't you think I might just know a little something about what it takes to make one work? Also, I am the audience you want to reach, a young, single woman. So, you should listen to people with more experience than you. When I wanted to learn to sail, I listened to experienced sailors....you need to listen to people with relationship experience. I think you just enjoy blaming your shortcomings on something other than yourself.
I never said ppl were not free to give me differing opinions, even if I didn't happen to agree with them. I also never said I was "ignoring" any advice...and I did take everything in and examined it, whether I agreed or not with what was said. It may be *your* view that my Internet relationships were not "real", but it is just that -- your own individual view.
Further, considering and weighing advice doesn't necessarily obligate me to actually take or implement absolutely 100% all of it. FWIW, I did truly appreciate all the advice I was given, as I have stated, several times already. I even publicly acknowledged that several posters' knowledge exceeded my own, in certain areas. But I am not reducible to being a mere "yes man". And some who responded did not exactly make an effort to be diplomatic or tactful in their replies. Among other things, I have been accused of being "weak", "weird", "act[ing] gay", lacking in critical / intellectual reasoning skills, possibly being a dishonest person, and perhaps some other things I can't specifically recall atm, that I'd have to go back through the thread and check for. It seems that some posters here (definitely not all) truly believe that taking on a combative, confrontational, bellicose, or aggressive tone is gonna help me, which for the life of me I can't fathom A little diplomacy, or slightly softer tone of inflection, never hurt anyone right?
I would take issue with the viewpoint that everything I am facing, is "all my fault", due to my own "shortcomings". The fact is, for better or worse, this has been my particular life experience. I don't see how casting stones at me because of it, is going to help. Do I have things I do in fact need to improve on, socially? Certainly. Do I want to ask advice, from those wiser than me? Yes. I would argue that I have in fact already started that process of self-improvement.
Hi - you yourself have stated that you have little relationship experience. I am all for an individual thinking for themselves (), however, a person has to also realize the times that they are wrong. Meeting someone online is great. Even if she agrees with you, you came to this board asking relationship questions from people who are not love-shy. People who are comfortable starting relationships and have been in them for years. If multiple people that you have asked relationship questions to are telling you the same thing, don't you think there may be something to it? I think you want to be in a relationship so bad that you find some sort of comfort in calling this online girlfriend a relationship.
ITA. Online dating is a great avenue, however, you do not get to know the real person until you meet them, see them in various settings, and interact with them. Until that happens, often times the person views the online person based on the going ons in their own head. Like a fantasy land. Then they when they meet they see they have built up this person so much and it does not match the real person in front of them. That's why I am an advocate of meeting in person in the early stage.
It's commendable that you are trying different avenues. However, you come across very formal. And as one who is not used to face to face social interaction. I'm thinking you give off this same vibe on your dates. Being nice is fine, but mature women want a man whose niceness is complimented by his masculinity. I've read quite a few of your threads and you appear to always analyze/over analyze everything. Also in previous threads I've wondered why you allow people to treat you the way they do. IMO, you need to put trying to date on hold for a moment and concentrate on your social skills. Talking to people. Developing friendships. Learning how to be comfortable around other people. Now, you don't have to stop trying to date for a long time. It's just that I think once you get some friends and are used to friendship banter and seeing people happily want to spend time with you, it will help you loosen up and this new found attitude will transfer over to your dating activities.
Older people have a wealth of information. Get to know them. They have experienced similar situations and can tell you what they have learned as a result of it. They can give you some insight on what changes would be helpful. You create outings you can attend together. Become friends. Besides many people find romantic partners through their friends playing matchmaker. So you just never know when a friend will say 'hey Knight2009, I know a girl....'. Try to keep up with some of the pop culture. Learn to be interesting. Developing friends is a great starting point.
Go ahead and judge me negatively, then; that's certainly your right, and I won't stop or prevent you. But remember that you don't "know" the real me, either...and the text below, is filled with assumptions, some of which perhaps may be true, but by no means all, in my own humble opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire
You seem weak and weird. You dont seem like you take initiative towards the things you really want and things that mean something to you - like women. People (not just women) dont like people who dont have passion *I dont mean mere desire, I mean a compelling passion*. And you dont seem to have as much passion for any particular woman or even being in any real relationship, as you do for delving into this love shy drivel. I dont think you truly want to be in a relationship.
I think you are here going through the motions of "trying to find out why baa bahh bah baah ba" so that you can just cross this off of your list of failed attempts at improving your dating life: "Welp, that does it, the world is awful and thinks me worthless. Ive tried everything: a dating coach, an online service, Ive made a couple of attempts at relationships and I just cant catch a break. Aww shucks"
Because, I mean seriously? Who goes on for 30 pages about why they cant get anyone to take them seriously in a relationship. Most people who are truly serious about anything (not just relationships) would have pulled the plug at about page 20 and went back out there to start trying to find love again. That is, if they were serious in the first place. I think you've become complacent with failure, and the whole process of "trying". Now youre in the cycle of going through the motions of trying and failing and trying and failing and so forth. Your newest attempt to rationalize your shortcomings thus far seems to be this love shy thing.
I dont consider the 30 dates thing to be any real measure of anything. These sorts of immaterial engagements in which, according to you, you tried ardently to maintain a neutral, easy going, tepid mood, should tell you how risk averse you are. You make it sound like the world would explode if the dates encountered a little tumult. From what Ive read of you, you seem to have a pattern of taking the safe route (internet dating, tepid personality, pleaser, asking for help on an internet forum etc.) Point blank: that is a negative trait - and a major one to boot.
Lastly, as a grown man, you need to drop the nice guy act. I dont care if its genuine or not. Little boys are nice and sweet...As a grown man, you're supposed to have grown out of that. You need to be adult enough to let people know that what you want matters enough that it doesnt matter if others are upset about it. That shows others that you value you and your own first. And people like for men to be selfish - because that lets them know that they can depend on you for their own well being as long as they are in your circle. People like to know that you will take care of the things you are passionate about. One of those things should be yourself. You dont seem like you value yourself enough to even be of much use to anyone else; much less a woman in a relationship. And you dont value yourself because youve never forced yourself to measure yourself.
You sound as if youve lived in a sort of non confrontational comfort zone that has never forced you to be vulnerable enough to discover your value. All you know is that you lost when you tried. But you'll never win if you dont make yourself vulnerable. And rather than allowing yourself to be vulnerable and stepping out of your comfort zone and walking directly up to women and introducing yourself, you'd rather take the safe route, and click around on the internet and wait for it to fail so that you can continue rationalizing your experiences for better or for worse.
By the way, let me just say: I DO believe that the love shy thing exists as a real clinical condition. I think unto itself, it is a very valid condition. Maybe not as a medical condition, but certainly as a clinically psychiatric condition. I just dont think thats your only problem, or even your biggest problem. I think you are in a comfort zone of trying and failure with a dash of cognitive rationalizing of those failures. Course, I could be entirely wrong, but so far thats the impression I get.
Further, considering and weighing advice doesn't necessarily obligate me to actually take or implement absolutely 100% all of it. FWIW, I did truly appreciate all the advice I was given, as I have stated, several times already.
But the thing is, you've asked for and have been given a lot of great advice. You've said that you appreciated it, but if you don't actually take some of it to heart and change your outlook and behavior, it means nothing. As the saying goes, "if you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you've always got."
You say you used a matchmaker and a dating coach. What did they say were the reasons you're having trouble with dating?
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), however, a person has to also realize the times that they are wrong. Meeting someone online is great. Even if she agrees with you, you came to this board asking relationship questions from people who are not love-shy. People who are comfortable starting relationships and have been in them for years. If multiple people that you have asked relationship questions to are telling you the same thing, don't you think there may be something to it? I think you want to be in a relationship so bad that you find some sort of comfort in calling this online girlfriend a relationship. 
Over the past 1-2 years, I have:
