Could some gay people 'splain this? (how to, marriage, girl, single)

[soozin]

Free speech gives Mike the right to say he believes it is a wrong choice from his point of view. It's a bit insensitive of course, as it might be to him if I said his way of life is the wrong choice.

We could argue to the point of flame, but it would not change anything. From his point of view my choice is wrong. From my point of view it is right 'Because it IS my choice'. Born gay or adopted, it is my choice to live as I see fit as long as it harms no one. And no one in my life has been harmed by my choice.

Knowing when to say something and when not to is an art, that often comes from empathy and that would be my only problem with Mike. He knows full well that that remark will be hurtful, though he may also feel justified for that as well, it was his choice to say it in this forum and at this time knowing full well it would cause a reaction.

We also have to be responsible for our 'reaction' to his words, that either make the case for those who feel it's wrong or make the case for those who feel it's right. Christians often don't change minds because their approach is very offensive, and they often can't see that because they are not gay and can not empathize with you. And too often gays react out of offense and they end up reinforcing the Christian's attitude. Nothing changes between the two sides.

My problem with many discussions online is that they never accomplish anything because of the hurtful remarks that just cause an equally hurtful response.

Just as I believe it takes guts to be how you are, it also takes guts to re-visit history and re-examine preconceived notions and indoctrination.

I never tell people that I am gay until well after we have become friends. It's interesting what happens. I am an easy person to get along with, I still have those same straight friends, some of whom where very homophobic before they met me. It's amazing what happens when people treat each other as humans and not enemies.

I am a bit tired, hope that made sense.

[country pride]

Wow, I might get rocks thrown at me for this but here goes:
My best friend/first crush in high school was an awesome guy. He was the only one who would walk me to my classes, hold my books, he introduced me to photography and hooked me up with a theatre where they do plays, because I loved the stage.
He pulled some strings to get me parts in a couple of upcoming shows, even though auditions were already over, but I got in. He probably had no clue I had a crush on him. But he was also younger than me and we lived in two different cities.
After high school, we kept in touch for awhile, but eventually lost touch, exept through a mutual friend.
I got a call in the late 80's that he was dying. He was barely 30-something. The pics that were sent to me, one would never know, he was tall, had gorgeous long blonde hair, those shoulders looked like a football player, he was built like a freight train. He had aids. He was gay. (That explained why we never did anything more than just 'hang out' together?)
My husband wouldnt let me go up and visit with him, despite that nothing was going to happen, but I was married to a controlling, very jealous guy. So my friends and his family kept me posted. In 1990 he finally died. He weighed 78 lbs when he finally passed on. I didnt get to go to the funeral either but everyone knew how close we once were.
What Im getting at, is sometimes we may not know a person is gay, yet they could be our best friend and they have never done anything to offend us, but as soon as they say the one phrase, people will run like theres a fire. What difference would it make if they never said anything at all, just continued keeping it a secret? People have been known to do so, for years, before coming 'out of the closet'.

[Claire_F]

The reason I reacted to the post is because not only was it completely off topic, but it IS hurtful, as soozin said. I've had several gay friends. One of my closest friends is a lesbian. I'm straight - always have been, always will be.

One of my gay friends was someone I grew up with. Looking back to the time before we even knew what sex was, I can see that being gay is just who he was. It wasn't a choice, any more than being straight was a choice for me. There was no conscious decision made. None of us sat down and said, "Hmmm. Let's see. Do I like men, or women?" It's just who we are - and for someone to say that it's wrong is deeply offensive. It's not as if you're saying the choice of clothes you're wearing is wrong, or the cut or color of your hair is wrong. It's saying that who you are is wrong.

If God made everyone, then God made gay people, too. It's not always a choice. Sure, some people experiment, and some people play both teams. But for many people (and I'd hazard a guess to say the majority of them), sexuality is not a choice - it's simply who they are. As long as it's between two consenting adults, there's nothing wrong with it. Two people of the same sex loving each other is infinitely better than people hating, or passing judgment on each other.

[Magnum Mike]

Power Surge, I'm sure the loss of somebody you know, regardless of their sexual preference, can be devestating, but the fact is most homosexuals refuse to listen to the voice of reason that tries to lead them to the truth about how God feels about homosexuality, which is found in the Bible, in Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:18-32, and I Corinthians 6:9-10. I don't hate homosexuals, in fact if one were to walk up to me and admit they are gay, I'd do the same thing Jesus would have done, recite the scriptures to them hoping it would inspire, or at least plant a seed with them to encourage them to walk away from this lifestyle. If they don't, well that's their decision, but at least I tried. In fact, there are a couple of people in our church who admitted they were homosexuals, and the truth led them away from the homosexual lifestyle.

A buddy of mine's former girlfriend had a cousin, who was gay, and I found out last year that he also died of AIDS, which is unfortunate because if somebody revealed the truth to him, he'd still be alive now.

[soozin]

Originally Posted by gentlearts

Thus, my original question about why this happens frequently in the gay community. I'm afraid, so far, nobody has been able to make me get it.

You seem to have lived a very sheltered life to have not been exposed to the diversity in our culture. That's curious to me, but possible I suppose..

I find that men who are secure in who they are, are not intimidated by women who are not typical females. But again, I suppose a typical straight male is more likely to look for a typical straight female and if you were brought up in a Christian family I wouldn't be surprised if you are confused by what you see. I hope i said that right.

I also knew this guy who I thought was extremely effeminate, that was married to a woman who was more your typical female. Everyone swore he was a gay man, but he was not. Their personalities complemented each other.

I personally just like a balance of attributes of male [outward, firm, logical, strong, rational] and female [receptive, intuitive, inward, sensitive, delicate, emotional, nurturing] in the same person. I think gay people can relate to that more than most straights, though straights can too if they open themselves up to it and aren't denying they too share some opposite sex attributes.

I think I possess more male attributes than female. I identify with logic intuitive, receptive, inward and outward, firm and rational, but I identify less with sensitive, delicate, emotional and nurturing. Or at least I haven't found them showing up very often. LOL I also have more fun with males than I do with females most of the time, because I relate to guys more. But for a relationship I prefer those attributes that most guys aren't in touch with.

To say it all simply we are attracted to certain people the same way you are attracted to certain people, you just maybe a bit more typical than others. That isn't bad either, unless you feel superior because or you preference.

[Claire_F]

The problem with that logic, Mike, is that not everyone is Christian. The other problem with that logic is that it's theory - not truth. You may personally believe it to be the truth, but it's a theory that is never proven until you die - and then you can't share the results with others.

You may call it the voice of reason. I call it words that were written thousands of years ago, and interpreted many times since then - often by people with their own personal agendas.

I respect your right to your beliefs. However, if you demand respect for your beliefs without respecting others' rights to theirs, then you lose it from me. Telling someone that who they are is wrong, as well as trying to shove your beliefs down their throats, is extremely disrespectful.

[Magnum Mike]

Originally Posted by Claire_F

... The other problem with that logic is that it's theory - not truth. You may personally believe it to be the truth, but it's a theory that is never proven until you die - and then you can't share the results with others.

There are plenty of people who had a near death experience and shared what they experienced with others, and the truth is exactly what was implied in the Bible about how we'll be judged.

Originally Posted by Claire_F

You may call it the voice of reason. I call it words that were written thousands of years ago, and interpreted many times since then - often by people with their own personal agendas.

That's your opinion Claire, but I've read scriptures from all translations, even the Jewish version (The Torah) and all have the same meaning in their message.

Originally Posted by Claire_F

I respect your right to your beliefs. However, if you demand respect for your beliefs without respecting others' rights to theirs, then you lose it from me. Telling someone that who they are is wrong, as well as trying to shove your beliefs down their throats, is extremely disrespectful.

I am a humble person and I don't demand respect for my beliefs, my beliefs are the same ones Jesus had 2000 years ago, and he was crucified for them.

[soozin]

Mike you have gone from a bit insensitive to arrogant and self righteous, the very thing that turns most gays off and heck it turns off alot of people. Because some Christian turned a couple of young impressionable guilt ridden gays away from their lifestyle doesn't mean it's possible in all cases or even in those cases. It also depends on how badly those kids feel the need to please their parents and friends and God.
You obviously have no idea how many gays exist in the world. You have your work cut out for you... But I wouldn't be so sure your God would approve of you standing in the path of another.

My own twin was gay, but he was terrified that he could not live with people judging him, and being preached to and never being able to be himself. So he found a woman who was asexual and married. Why? Because of people like you he has never been able to be who he is. That's sad..

I love him either way. I would be absolutely livid if you tried using your value system on any of my gay friends much less any of my friends, though they can take care of themselves. Lucky for me no one has ever tried to do that to me. Of should I say lucky for them they never tried.

If there is a God and no one has convinced me of that yet, then by your value system alone, how dare you decide what your God has created is flawed? You certainly have no proof that your God didn't create them. Nor in fact can you even prove your God exists, much less gave you the power and authority to change a person's path or life.

And who are you to decide that for your god? Ever think of that? Ever think that maybe some homophob back in history added those quotes to the bible along with many other additions no one knows the author of? Could that be possible or is it not possible for you to see the bible just might be the imagination of a few insecure old guys who not only hated homosexuals but from the looks of it didn't like women much either, considering how they were treated.

If a gay person can't handle this life as a gay person then they should do what they have to, but it's a dang shame that there are people who use a 'book' to condemn and manipulate someone else's life.

If I had one wish for you, it would be that you wake up gay and be gay for a year and be subjected to your own condemnation and that of your Bible. Unfortunately that would probably be the only thing that would change your heart because you certainly haven't researched anything other than your bible.

It's amazing, people would never claim that everything in a book written today is absolutely correct and yet a book written by primitive men, 30 years after the fact is absolutely the word of God. Of 'course' those primitive men had no hang ups, couldn't possibly be homophobic, couldn't have lied, couldn't have just plain exaggerated. Of course not, how could we possibly think they might have been human.

When you can prove anything in the Bible is actually true I might give you a shot, but until then you have no business assuming it's your right to preach to or change anyone. No wonder people don't want to hang out with most Christians. The christians I know wouldn't think of doing such a thing.

[soozin]

Unfortunately there is little hope for people who take the bible so literally to even expect to have a logical discussion. I have no need or desire to change Mike. And I certainly wouldn't need his acceptance or approval. I wasn't aware one could be humble and arrogant and self righteous at the same time, but... learn something new each day.

I am not recommending the following link to Mike, because of course it would be sacrilegious for him to read it, but for anyone one else that finds religion fascinating yet some how contradictory and compulsive, or at least what it does to people who take it to the extreme, you might find it interesting. Though it's not new to me I often find myself browsing it now and again when I am faced with evangelicals at my door, as it makes you think twice about some of the things in the bible that are often not mentioned by your local pastor or preacher. Interesting reading. Especially in a time when the three major religions in the world are fighting over who's god is the real god, and we are all paying the price for their insistence and their arrogance, in death and destruction.

Understanding the Bible

I have often wondered why men use words like sissy etc towards other men and I have come to the relization that to be a woman for thousands of years was considered to be weak and worthless. Where did we get such ideas? Certainly not from the bible? Ya think? I tend to think that often times men to this day still do not ultimately like women. Here is an interesting chapter about sexism and god and the bible. Of course I never needed this site to find the obvious contradictions in the bible, I heard them in bible school as a kid, I couldn't believe them then or now for much the same reason as this site explains. Why is God so sexist?

I hope it's ok to post links, if it is not please forgive me and feel free to remove them. Well that enough for me for one night.. See ya..

[Magnum Mike]

Soozin - I'm not doing this out of insensitivity or arrogance, I'm doing this out of compassion for those can use some divine guidance. If they accept it fine, if not, that's their choice, I'm not going to condemn them for it.