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Old 05-07-2007, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,630,095 times
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TL_TN_Nana wrote:
Quote:
Hmmm...wonder if they're searching for something that's missing? Even if they don't know it, perhaps there's a deep desire for God. And because we can't PROVE it to them and they can't take it on FAITH, there is a tendency to 'put down' our beliefs.
No, I don't think that's what it is and I've really tried to not get argumentative although a couple of times I know I've sounded that way. I think that those of us who are atheists are honestly trying to put forward some questions or ideas to get people thinking about their own beliefs. The evolution debate clearly favors our point of view so it's not like we're mad because we're losing the debate. What I'm trying to put forward is the fact that evolution can be shown to be factual and scientifically sound so there's really nothing to debate about in the first place. I would like to get religious people to take another look at the subject without all of the prejudices that they might have and try to actually learn something about the subject that doesn't come from a religious source. Christians are the targets of a marketing campaign being promoted by creationists, many of whom are only in it to sell a product such as a book or a video so it's as much of a business venture as anything else. I just want to urge people to be open minded and take a fresh look at it and make sure that their sources of information are actually based on science.

 
Old 05-07-2007, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Central FL
1,683 posts, read 8,214,739 times
Reputation: 853
Quote:
Its not what I call fact, it IS fact. There is NO doubt that we developed from earlier species.



I've got plenty of doubt.

I believe God...He said it...that settles it! It really doesn't matter who believes it.
 
Old 05-07-2007, 09:15 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,019 posts, read 34,397,699 times
Reputation: 31647
Quote:
Originally Posted by pianogal View Post
Its not what I call fact, it IS fact. There is NO doubt that we developed from earlier species.

Quote:
I've got plenty of doubt.

I believe God...He said it...that settles it! It really doesn't matter who believes it.
I believe God too! He said He created man, that's good enough for me
 
Old 05-08-2007, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
954 posts, read 813,708 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
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I've got plenty of doubt.

I believe God...He said it...that settles it! It really doesn't matter who believes it.
Quote:
I believe God too! He said He created man, that's good enough for me
Classic circular reasoning! God wrote the bible.......it says so in the bible........if it says so in the bible it must be true.......because god wrote the bible!
 
Old 05-13-2007, 06:59 PM
 
155 posts, read 473,984 times
Reputation: 33
Because evolution is not fact! We evolved by taking the good traits from our ancestors, right? Then how do you account for emotions? They serve no obvious purpose to our lives. Most of the time they tend to hamper our development. We have emotions because we are set apart from the animal world and created in the image of God. Also, what facts are there to prove evolution? I've never seen them. There are noo fossils, and the only "evidence" I've ever seen are scientific models of what supposedly "happened."
 
Old 05-13-2007, 07:09 PM
 
646 posts, read 1,610,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inftmyers View Post
Because evolution is not fact! We evolved by taking the good traits from our ancestors, right? Then how do you account for emotions? They serve no obvious purpose to our lives. Most of the time they tend to hamper our development. We have emotions because we are set apart from the animal world and created in the image of God. Also, what facts are there to prove evolution? I've never seen them. There are noo fossils, and the only "evidence" I've ever seen are scientific models of what supposedly "happened."
Emotions serve no obvous purpose? How about love/caring for family. This means that you are likely to sacrifice for your children, therefore increasing their chances for survival, therefore emotions are a productive thing. How about fear? We run from what we are afraid of, therefore enhancing our survival.

Evidence. Give me a break. There are thousands of fossils, DNA evidence, mitochondrial evidence, etc. There are plenty of facts. If you have not seen evidence, it is because you are wilfully closing your eyes and sticking your thumbs in your ears while chanting "I can't hear you!".

Random mutation, combined with natural selection, to produce evolutionary changes, are quite simply facts.

How do you explain neanderthal man? Homo habilis? The fact that our DNA is approximately 98% the same as other great apes?
 
Old 05-13-2007, 07:18 PM
 
155 posts, read 473,984 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch00 View Post
Emotions serve no obvous purpose? How about love/caring for family. This means that you are likely to sacrifice for your children, therefore increasing their chances for survival, therefore emotions are a productive thing. How about fear? We run from what we are afraid of, therefore enhancing our survival.

Evidence. Give me a break. There are thousands of fossils, DNA evidence, mitochondrial evidence, etc. There are plenty of facts. If you have not seen evidence, it is because you are wilfully closing your eyes and sticking your thumbs in your ears while chanting "I can't hear you!".

Random mutation, combined with natural selection, to produce evolutionary changes, are quite simply facts.

How do you explain neanderthal man? Homo habilis? The fact that our DNA is approximately 98% the same as other great apes?
Umm, animals care for their young and they still have no emotion. It is instinct. You can care for others without having emotions just out of instinct to prolong the survival of your species. I am very open minded (even though I am a Christian) and have been to countless museums all over the country and have yet to see a genuine fossil of a transitional species. Also, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? I guess that you could argue that the ape's location had something to do with it. Perhaps the environment cause a specific group to mutate. Then how do you explain humans and apes living in the same area. Would those humans living near apes be somehow less human because they aren't as "advanced" as humans that evolved earlier?
 
Old 05-13-2007, 07:33 PM
 
646 posts, read 1,610,929 times
Reputation: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by inftmyers View Post
Umm, animals care for their young and they still have no emotion. It is instinct. You can care for others without having emotions just out of instinct to prolong the survival of your species. I am very open minded (even though I am a Christian) and have been to countless museums all over the country and have yet to see a genuine fossil of a transitional species. Also, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? I guess that you could argue that the ape's location had something to do with it. Perhaps the environment cause a specific group to mutate. Then how do you explain humans and apes living in the same area. Would those humans living near apes be somehow less human because they aren't as "advanced" as humans that evolved earlier?
So many misconceptions as to what evolution says.

First, there is no one 'best' way of dealing with things. Hypothetically, emotions and instinct both work to achieve the same ends. However, I will also argue that animals do have emotions. Ever see a dog or cat run from the vacuum cleaner? Because it is scary, and they are afraid. Elephants and chimps mourn their dead.

Secondly, we are all transitional species. If you are looking for a half man, half fish, stop looking. It is not there, and if it was, it would DISPROVE evolution. Evolution is a gradual change in allele frequency over time. This means very, very, very tiny changes over millions of years. There are no hard and fast lines between species. More to the point, we can look at something liike homo habilis, and say that looks a lot like homo sapiens, we are probably related. And between homo habilis and us lie many, many imperceptible differences, all adding up to a different species in the end, but with no clear dividing line.

As for apes and humans, you are in the ballpark. First, we did not evolve from modern day apes such as chimps, gorillas or orangutans. But we did have a common ancestor. Human beings, chimpanzees, and bonobos are the most closely related of the great apes (if memory serves). We are like cousins. We have a common ancestor, in the same way that you and your cousins have a common ancestor in your grandfather. We are more distantly related to gorillas and monkeys. To stretch my analogy, thinks of them as 2nd cousins, related through your great grandfather.

Now, how do they live close to one another? No big deal. Just like you and your cousins moved away from home, then moved closer again. If enough generations go by so that you cannot interbreed, that does not preclude being neighbors.
 
Old 05-13-2007, 07:37 PM
 
155 posts, read 473,984 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch00 View Post
So many misconceptions as to what evolution says.

First, there is no one 'best' way of dealing with things. Hypothetically, emotions and instinct both work to achieve the same ends. However, I will also argue that animals do have emotions. Ever see a dog or cat run from the vacuum cleaner? Because it is scary, and they are afraid. Elephants and chimps mourn their dead.

Secondly, we are all transitional species. If you are looking for a half man, half fish, stop looking. It is not there, and if it was, it would DISPROVE evolution. Evolution is a gradual change in allele frequency over time. This means very, very, very tiny changes over millions of years. There are no hard and fast lines between species. More to the point, we can look at something liike homo habilis, and say that looks a lot like homo sapiens, we are probably related. And between homo habilis and us lie many, many imperceptible differences, all adding up to a different species in the end, but with no clear dividing line.

As for apes and humans, you are in the ballpark. First, we did not evolve from modern day apes such as chimps, gorillas or orangutans. But we did have a common ancestor. Human beings, chimpanzees, and bonobos are the most closely related of the great apes (if memory serves). We are like cousins. We have a common ancestor, in the same way that you and your cousins have a common ancestor in your grandfather. We are more distantly related to gorillas and monkeys. To stretch my analogy, thinks of them as 2nd cousins, related through your great grandfather.

Now, how do they live close to one another? No big deal. Just like you and your cousins moved away from home, then moved closer again. If enough generations go by so that you cannot interbreed, that does not preclude being neighbors.
What about humor as an emotion? What about morals? Crying? (I'm not trying to disprove you by the way. I really am interested in your defense.)
 
Old 05-13-2007, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,915 posts, read 18,630,095 times
Reputation: 5524
inftmyers wrote:
Quote:
I am very open minded (even though I am a Christian) and have been to countless museums all over the country and have yet to see a genuine fossil of a transitional species. Also, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?
The number of transitional fossils continues to grow and you're obviously uninformed about what paleontologists continue to discover every year. Even though the conditions that will preserve a skeleton are very rare we do have a number of prehuman species that walked on two legs but had physical traits that weren't quite human and weren't quite apelike. Your last question just proves that you have no knowledge of how evolution works. Species tend to branch out as they adapt to new environments. Just because one butterfly happened to adapt to the conditions in a particular location and become a separate species doesn't mean that every other butterfly in the world should all change in the same manner. That's ridiculous. You might ask the question "if dogs evolved from wolves then why are there still wolves?" The obvious reason is that wolves still thrive in their environment because they're very well adapted to it. Dogs have a completely different environment and it involves an association with human beings so of course they're going to be adapted to their environment as well. I hate to break it to you but creationism lost this debate about one hundred and fifty years ago.
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