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Still waiting for an answer as to whether or not you believe the Bible...
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Originally Posted by cpg35223
Oh, so basically anything that isn't explicitly prohibited in the Bible is automatically endorsed by the Bible. Nice argument, Sparky. You're really reaching.
My original question to you was:
Which of the founding principles is contradicted in scripture?
Now, here you are, attempting to move the goal post.
Nice try - "Sparky"
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
Seriously. Show me Biblical passages regarding voting. Or anything else I've described.
How about if you tell me whether or not you actually believe the Bible, then perhaps we can discuss the applicable passages.
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Originally Posted by cpg35223
So, if we were really arguing your point, then the colonists would have dutifully submitted to the Stamp Act, and so on.
A total non-sequitur taking scripture wildly out of context...IMO.
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Originally Posted by cpg35223
One other thing. Paul Johnson is a favorite historian of conservatives, not revisionists. Good grief, I wish you'd bother to do your reading. And as someone who has read a great deal on this period, including the writings of the Founding Fathers, I'm guessing that I'm much more aware of their misgivings of a church/state union than you are.
I really don't care - even if he was the pope. If what you described about his view is true, he comes off as a total crackpot.
If you've read the founders, IMO you would do better to mention those views (of the founders) that you feel would lend weight to your argument rather than referencing contemporary historians. The revisionist histories are a dime-a-dozen. I have neither the time nor inclination to research all those who receive honorable mention here in a forum such as this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
Even Madison, by far the most religious of the Founding Fathers was heavily influenced by Adam Smith on the subject. While we know Smith as the father of modern economics and the Scottish Englightenment, his influence also was very strong in the area of the state's influence on religious matters. Smith's writings stated a strong belief that the state should completely absent itself from all religious messages, instead simply providing a place where all faiths (And non-faiths, for that matter) could compete on level field. Madison believed in the wisdom of this.
I've never denied that the founders were seeking to establish a tolerant, pluralistic society - one where there is no state established religion. Again, what is it about this notion that would be so contradictory to scripture?
"This is NOT, I repeat,NOT a nation founded on Christian principles"
The founding of this nation is irrelevant. This nation has no principles. This nation is driven by a lust for power and wealth. Whatever aids to accomplish (the ends justify the means) these two is declared a 'principle'; christian mob rule - Christianity uber alles!
I don't agree with you very often Vis...but I concur with that.
Good point, BUT - you probably pay for the abuse and agony of animals everyday (unless you are vegan) without a second thought. It is, from my vantage point, a cruel/heartless lifestyle but yet I understand that our culture is generally calloused to such things, so I give those who support this horrible cruelty (modern factory farming) some slack on that account. Just because I cut them slack doesn't change the reality of the wrong that's done, it just means I take the culture and what is taught as acceptable into account.
Anyway - I'm glad you are one of the good guys even though, if you are not a vegan, I personally believe you are somewhat of a bloody barbarian your own self. (the vegan thing is off topic but is a good way to explain the subjectivity of morality based on cultural norms and vantage points).
On the other hand, I admit that in some ways I am a self-serving bastard much of the day long. So, I am not so much into judging others as into growing/discussing/learning.
Comparing animals to people now?!! Grabbing at straws much?!
Sorta like equating eating at McDonalds to cannibalism, commercial fishing to mega-mass-murder, or horseback riding to slave-driving.
Get a clue...and a valid argument!
Oh, and here's something you can discuss with yourself, to help you grow/learn: Assessing behavior relative to a minimum basic objective standard of decency/morality DOES NOT constitute "judgment", in the context you are using "judging others".
Comparing animals to people now?!! Grabbing at straws much?!
Sorta like equating eating at McDonalds to cannibalism, commercial fishing to mega-mass-murder, or horseback riding to slave-driving.
Get a clue...and a valid argument!
I didn't compare animals to people. I was showing how cultural norms callous people to suffering.
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Oh, and here's something you can discuss with yourself, to help you grow/learn: Assessing behavior relative to a minimum basic objective standard of decency/morality DOES NOT constitute "judgment", in the context you are using "judging others".
The "minimum basic objective standard" is set by cultural norms, which is subjective. I was attempting to show you how that works - and all you got out of it (apparently) was a comparison of animals to humans.
Anyway - I guess your motto is (golden rule?) "do unto other HUMANS as you would have done to you" - which is far below my minimum standard and I hope one day that the accepted "minimum basic standard" will rise.
Wow. Gldn. I had NO idea you had such a sad view off our FFs & gov/mint!! Yes, they were but men, and as such mere mortals. We "men" have continually & historically demo'd a penchant for outrageously selfish behavior. But I gotta say; this little experiment in a democratic Republic has, IMHO, worked so much better than the other versions, to really loosely paraphrase Winston Churchill.
That's a sole result, IMHO, of our Constitution's structured guarantees of personal, political and religious freedoms. I'm not talking what the Wall Street boyz have wrought.
I know do that the Churches of Europe probably really cramped the entrepreneurial spirits of the FFs and their families to the point they wanted less oppressive government, and thought: "Hey! I know! Let's form our own country, wresting it away from those dumb natives [all that takes is a bit of firewater and some moldy blankets!]"
But still, the OP's point here is: did they utilize, direct from The Good Book, some line-by-line, unique and Christian-only directives in their documents and thinking?
I say no; the ideals they incorporated were distinctly un-Christian, purely "democratic" in the most egalitarian sense of the world, and absent some titular head of government, as the Church had always always required. Oh, and their absolute, unbending requirement for patronage, tithing and obedience. With punishments routinely meted out, and no "voting" allowed. You'd have to agree here, right?
They sure did use that (bolded above) in their thinking (and their actions) rifle! Regardless of the "Utopian theories" they put in their "documents"...that they (personally and as a group) were the biggest failures at being able to carry out.
Those "direct from The Good Book, line-by-line directives" being: All the ones that condone slavery, and tell slaves to obey their masters...all the ones that diminish women...and all the ones that tell people that if they don't "conform" they should suffer/die.
Yup...from what I can see...based on their actions...those would be The Good Book Directives they "founded" their government and new society on.
Look rifle...you already know I have great respect for you...but I don't have any "view" in regard to "our FFs & gov/mint" that I would think any person assessing that "scene" with an application of even the lowest threshold of decency/morality wouldn't also hold.
But, hey...some in this world condone the actions of Hitler, skinheads, racists, etc. You've got everything from the Westboro Baptist crew, abortion clinic bombers, suicidal terrorists...and all kinds of people that will swear up and down that heinous behavior is right and proper, or at least the acceptable and justified means to some end that they like/want. And people that speak well of those supposed "founding fathers" are using that same kind of "reason".
Regardless of the "Utopian theories" they put in their "documents"...that they (personally and as a group) were the biggest failures at being able to carry out.
Where do you live? (If I may ask). AISI - Regardless of their failing test scores according to your "minimum objective standard" they managed to found a country which is doing fairly well overall, don't you think (or not?).
Where do you live? (If I may ask). AISI - Regardless of their failing test scores according to your "minimum objective standard" they managed to found a country which is doing fairly well overall, don't you think (or not?).
I live in Northwest Connecticut and The Mid-Hudson Valley in New York.
I see you are from Texas. Cool state. I was stationed at Fort Hood for a year when I was in the Army...so I'm familiar with it.
BTW..."minimum objective standards" are just that...minimum objective standards...they aren't *my* standards.
And let's get something straight...they didn't "found" anything...except a government and a society that replaced the one they massacred and/or swindled out of the land that comprised the country that had ALREADY been founded for hundreds and hundreds of years.
I do think this country is doing good now. Now that we have, maybe not the very best possible people, in office...but at least not murderous, ultra-chauvinistic, slave-masters. We've had to come a long way because of those hypocrites. Those guys were good at writing about "freedom"...but didn't have any idea what it was.
Some say, "we've learned"...but that is disingenuous...everyone knows it's wrong to be like those guys...no one needs to learn that. "Good" finally defeated their "evil"...but it took time...so powerful was their evil. Just like Germany is doing a lot better now without the influence of Hitler and the Nazis.
I still believe in a perfected world we would give back control of this country to the people we took it from...but that's another issue.
I live in Northwest Connecticut and The Mid-Hudson Valley in New York.
I see you are from Texas. Cool state. I was stationed at Fort Hood for a year when I was in the Army...so I'm familiar with it.
BTW..."minimum objective standards" are just that...minimum objective standards...they aren't *my* standards.
And let's get something straight...they didn't "found" anything...except a government and a society that replaced the one they massacred and/or swindled out of the land that comprised the country that had ALREADY been founded for hundreds and hundreds of years.
I do think this country is doing good now. Now that we have, maybe not the very best possible people, in office...but at least not murderous, ultra-chauvinistic, slave-masters. We've had to come a long way because of those hypocrites. Those guys were good at writing about "freedom"...but didn't have any idea what it was.
Some say, "we've learned"...but that is disingenuous...everyone knows it's wrong to be like those guys...no one needs to learn that. "Good" finally defeated their "evil"...but it took time...so powerful was their evil. Just like Germany is doing a lot better now without the influence of Hitler and the Nazis.
I still believe in a perfected world we would give back control of this country to the people we took it from...but that's another issue.
My native American (best) friend agrees!
Nice conversing with you. Please consider, deeply consider, the suffering of other conscious creatures as well, if you haven't already.
Nice conversing with you. Please consider, deeply consider, the suffering of other conscious creatures as well, if you haven't already.
Thank you.
Thank YOU firstborn. Lively debate is cool.
Give your friend my best regards. And you too.
I do understand about the animals. Cruel production/processing techniques are unacceptable. There is no need for them to suffer any pain.
I donate heavily to charities. Mostly to feed/help humans...but I have a soft spot, and do contribute, to my local SPCA as well.
MOF my 17 year old orange tabby female (yes, female) named Scuitty (acronym for Sweet Cute Kitty) is right next to me as I type this (in between scritching her head). She was a dumpster cat...the mother and siblings were all killed when she was about 4 weeks old. A local Sheriff saw her and picked her up...he asked me if I'd take her. She wasn't much bigger than a mouse. My vet didn't think she'd live. I fed her with a special bottle for a couple weeks until she could lick food off my finger. Obviously she made it. If there was such a thing as reincarnation...I'd want to come back as this cat. She exists at maximum comfort potential. I'm glad she has gotten to live her life, and I have actual love for her...like all the other pets I have had.
I feed the deer and the birds. Woodchucks have made swiss cheese out of my back yard...I let them be. One lives under the tool shed. I feed it...and it will stay out in my presence. Of course it's named Vincent Van Gopher. I leave a 20 foot radius of grass extending out from the shed unmowed...it eats all day, all season...for 5 years now. I feed the wild turkeys...though I do "harvest" a few of the old toms every year. I won't shoot unless I have a perfect shot, no more than 50 ft away...they don't suffer at all...MOF they never hear the shot.
The animals are acceptable as food for us...though we should always be mindful to show consideration about how we deal with them.
I do believe your points about the animals, and the mitigation of their suffering...are well taken.
Time for Scuittys' favorite event of the day...I let her lick a couple drops of milk off my finger when I put it in my coffee. Every day...for 17 years.
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