Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jeff, you might be surprised to learn that while I do believe Hell is eternal, as in forever- no second chances,(bet you didn't know I thought that!) I don't know if it is literally fire and brimstone. That may be symbolic but we have every indication from the teaching of Jesus that it is someplace you desperately want to avoid. For the Bible to use even metaphors (if it is metaphorical) that strong, however, it must be something uniquely horrific.
I have known people for whom the idea of there not being a life after death is more than they can handle. The fear of death ( and perhaps hell) is the fear of ceasing to exist. Of Not Being.
Others have no problem with the idea that after death, there's nothing. No spirit, no heaven, no hell.
To the first group that need to believe in some sort of Eternal Life, there needs to be a place of reward and therefore, one of punishment. Remember the Scripture that states, "in my Father's house, there are many mansions?" Some people just can't say that they just don't care. They need to believe that there is something afterwards.
Good thread Jeff (although I do agree the horse is way past dead )
I voted for the secod statement you put on the poll although my belief in Hell doesn't exactly fit that. I do believe that Hell is a literal place in which to learn very hard lessons. I don't believe it is eternal punishment but I also don't believe all will return to the prescence of God. So in a sense you could say Hell is eternal in that it could be not living in the prescence of God.
Jeff, you might be surprised to learn that while I do believe Hell is eternal, as in forever- no second chances,(bet you didn't know I thought that!) I don't know if it is literally fire and brimstone. That may be symbolic but we have every indication from the teaching of Jesus that it is someplace you desperately want to avoid.
Round 1! Ding ding! (And what!? You believe it's forever? No way! )
It is not literally fire and brimstone, if we are to believe the Bible anyway. The confusion comes from the 1 English word we have for fire, when in fact the Greek has more than one. In every instance that the Bible refers to hell-fire, it is the same type of fire used to describe God! There is another word used to describe literal fire, and this was never used to describe hell.
Would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the inflictor?
Would endless misery benefit the saints, as spectators?
Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the sufferer?
Good thread Jeff (although I do agree the horse is way past dead )
I voted for the secod statement you put on the poll although my belief in Hell doesn't exactly fit that. I do believe that Hell is a literal place in which to learn very hard lessons. I don't believe it is eternal punishment but I also don't believe all will return to the prescence of God. So in a sense you could say Hell is eternal in that it could be not living in the prescence of God.
Oh, I know that it is, but I thought maybe I would show an alternative viewpoint on the goodness of God...I have known athiests who don't believe in God because they have never been given a view of God that is not tainted by hellfire. I'm not saying that about the athiests on this thread, since I don't really know and would think they would say not so, but just in case...
Your question to Christians:
CHRISTIANS--Do you find God as portrayed from the Universalist standpoint to be lax on punishment? If so, why is an eternity of torture needed when God has the ability to reform sinners via His judgements, thus truly becoming all in all, and having perfect victory?
I feel I have no right to question God’s judgment on man, but the Universalist standpoint does in my opinion. Why is an eternity of torture needed when God has the ability to reform sinners via His judgments is something you will need to ask God. All I can say is that God is holy and his judgments are just. He already has perfect victory, we have a choice through Christ. Man is without excuse. Either you believe the bible or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Revelation 20:5-8
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Notice Jeff that it is NOT stated that God will give these things to everyone…or to the world!
Universalism takes verses out of context to fit what they believe about Hell. God is loving, but there is a time for judgment and then there will be no more mercy. You quoted part of the following verse…but take the whole thing and it has a different meaning does it not? Notice verse 33: He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die! Meaning: by his death ALL men will be drawn to Christ. His death would cover ALL sins…but that does not mean ALL will choose Him. It does not say all men will come into heaven and live with me. It says all men with be drawn!
John 12:30-33
30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
Serious Jeff, if you want to know the truth, have an open mind. Read these verses and hear that all will not be in heaven one day.
John 5:24 (New International Version)
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 11:25-26 (New International Version)
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 10:27-28 (New International Version)
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:3-7 (New International Version)
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.'
John 3:16 (New International Version)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
God does not want any to perish!
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (New International Version)
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
The verse says he wants all men to be saved it does not say all men will be saved. Big difference.
One cannot go to heaven by simply stating he believes. One must truly believe in his heart and only God knows the true believers from the fake ones. At the same time one cannot go to heaven simply because he is avoiding Hell. Hell is there for those who refuse to believe…not because man is imperfect and dumb…God knows the heart which we do not! Man is without excuse…God speaks to the heart… so why would someone go to Hell? Because they were misguided? Because they just didn’t know? The bible speaks to this, we simply need to believe what God is telling us!
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 (New International Version)
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Nowhere in the entire bible does it say that all man will be saved. Nowhere! It’s not about what makes most sense to us, it is about what makes most sense to God.
Last edited by jeffncandace; 07-16-2007 at 01:06 PM..
Reason: clarified your post for you :-)
But what if it is real, but is not eternal torture? What if it is reformative? If you believed in God, would this change your view of Him?
The Christian hell as described in many parts of the Bible doesn't sound reformative. I've never seen any passages that would suggest that hell has something similar to parole for good behavior, it's always described as eternal. There's many parts of the Bible that can be interpreted in various ways but the descriptions of hell seem pretty consistent.
Location: Ohio, but moving to El Paso, TX August/September
434 posts, read 1,653,811 times
Reputation: 310
Quote:
He already has perfect victory, we have a choice through Christ.
See, this is the problem I have with the Christian stance on things. Summed up right there in those words.
I know good people of all religions, and if there is a God, I can't see him/her/it refusing to let someone into heaven (if it exists) just because they didn't worship the right way. Shouldn't any "reward" so to speak of heaven go to those who are good people, not just loud Jesus shouters? Why wouldn't a supreme being be happy if people are good because it's the right thing to do, not because they worship in a way that one religious sect has deemed the right way to worship and believe?
Round 1! Ding ding! (And what!? You believe it's forever? No way! )
It is not literally fire and brimstone, if we are to believe the Bible anyway. The confusion comes from the 1 English word we have for fire, when in fact the Greek has more than one. In every instance that the Bible refers to hell-fire, it is the same type of fire used to describe God! There is another word used to describe literal fire, and this was never used to describe hell.
Would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the inflictor?
Would endless misery benefit the saints, as spectators?
Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the sufferer?
Well, all I'm willing to concede on this deal is that I'm not sure if the fire referred to is literal. As for the endless misery, as we've discussed endlessly in the past, God didn't ask us to take a vote. It is what it is. Whatever hell is, scripture is clear that there are no do-overs. And yes, we know that you disagree, Jeff.
The Christian hell as described in many parts of the Bible doesn't sound reformative. I've never seen any passages that would suggest that hell has something similar to parole for good behavior, it's always described as eternal. There's many parts of the Bible that can be interpreted in various ways but the descriptions of hell seem pretty consistent.
The voice of reason...everyone note that atheists and Christians can agree!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) I don't know if it is literally fire and brimstone. That may be symbolic but we have every indication from the teaching of Jesus that it is someplace you desperately want to avoid. For the Bible to use even metaphors (if it is metaphorical) that strong, however, it must be something uniquely horrific.
)
(And what!? You believe it's forever? No way! 
One more time!
