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I believe you just agreed with me in pointing out we too often make the error of trying to prove the other person is wrong and fail to show why we believe as we do.
I feel it would be both foolish and disrespectful if I tried to prove your God(swt) or the Christian God(swt) to be false.
That is not even an issue if I do not show why I worship Allaah(swt) The responsibility is upon me to prove beyond doubt that Allaah(swt) is the true God(swt). From there it is each person's own responsibility to verify all things and make their decisions based upon what they themselves have proven and/or validated.
You know Woodrow, I guess in my own way this is what I've been saying all along. We all have our own different beliefs, those of us that do believe, some are more passionate about it than others, but we do have one common denominator and that is that we do have a belief in something in our own way and to each one of us, we believe it be true.
You know Woodrow, I guess in my own way this is what I've been saying all along. We all have our own different beliefs, those of us that do believe, some are more passionate about it than others, but we do have one common denominator and that is that we do have a belief in something in our own way and to each one of us, we believe it be true.
To add to that, I think it is necessary for us all to understand the love each person has for what he believes. We can respect a persons love without agreeing to their choice.
I may not like my friend's wife, but I can still respect the marriage and appreciate that my friend loves her.
Any belief is just that, just a belief. If a person knew for sure then a belief isn't needed, so with any belief system comes uncertainty and one needs to acknowledge that. It is foolish for a person to present their belief as "matter of fact" whem they know deep in their heart that they really don't know for sure.
Us theists seem to have a knack for making our beliefs look foolish. Especially on forums and Message Boards. Over the past few years I have often seen these practices done. Sadly these same errors are done repeatedly.
I don't have 10 on my list. Perhaps some can suggest other errors we persist in making, to bring the list up to 10.
1. Demeaning a religion you disagree with.
This seems to be the most common error we make. Showing what you perceive as errors in another person's beliefs does not equate to meaning you are correct. It comes across as evidence you are prejudiced and a bigot.
This reminds me of a scene in "Thank You For Smoking." He debates with his son, to give him a sense of his job, and brings in some non-sequitirs to show his son is making false statements. The son, a bit perplexed, says "But that didn't prove you were right" and he responded with something like "Proving your opponent wrong is just as good in many debates." Giving his job discrediting the opponent was likely the best he could do and also he was essentially saying "winning" or at least "not losing" matters more than actual truth. (He was a fairly cynical character)
And the thing is in a two-person debate I could maybe see that. If you discredit the opponent than you're the one left standing. However with more than two people, or more accurately more than two views, and it doesn't work.
In my time here there is or was a fair amount of "Evangelical Protestant" vs "Rationalist Atheism" debates that worked something like this. One tries to discredit the other while maybe not realizing, or just ignoring, those aren't the only options. So the result, at most successful, is one being discredit and the other looking "possible, but deeply aggressive and bigoted." Making any third options, plausibly anyway, the real victors. (So the best off religions/irreligions here might be the ones not playing, like maybe Baha'i or Eastern Orthodox Christianity or something)
Both probably do number one, but I think atheists do it a bit more. Now
4. Assuming everybody believes our source of proof is accepted as proof by all people
Is something I see more with Christians and Muslims than others. People will quote the Qur'an or Bible as proof of the Qur'an or Bible.
I kind of see how this started. Originally many Evangelicals were likely dealing with other kinds of Christians and sometimes Jews. So trying to show that Catholicism or Orthodoxy or whatever are not justified by the Bible meant something. However trying to show atheism or Buddhism or something is not justified by the Bible doesn't really show anything about those. However I guess they were either unwilling or unable to adapt.
Islam has dealt with non-Muslims from the start, most Protestantism started in places already at least nominally Christian, so I'm not as clear there. I would guess a great many Muslims still live in majority Muslim nations so maybe think more of backsliding Muslims than people of totally different faiths. Also I know Muslims feel the Qur'an is "truer" to the person of Jesus than Christianity is to him. So they may feel quoting from both the Qur'an and the Gospels is useful in "reaching" Christians. (And that quoting it on Moses is useful to reaching Jews I suppose) Still for people not "Of the Book" I'm not sure what their thinking is. Possibly many Muslims are mostly just dealing with "People of the Book."
This reminds me of a scene in "Thank You For Smoking." He debates with his son, to give him a sense of his job, and brings in some non-sequitirs to show his son is making false statements. The son, a bit perplexed, says "But that didn't prove you were right" and he responded with something like "Proving your opponent wrong is just as good in many debates." Giving his job discrediting the opponent was likely the best he could do and also he was essentially saying "winning" or at least "not losing" matters more than actual truth. (He was a fairly cynical character)
And the thing is in a two-person debate I could maybe see that. If you discredit the opponent than you're the one left standing. However with more than two people, or more accurately more than two views, and it doesn't work.
In my time here there is or was a fair amount of "Evangelical Protestant" vs "Rationalist Atheism" debates that worked something like this. One tries to discredit the other while maybe not realizing, or just ignoring, those aren't the only options. So the result, at most successful, is one being discredit and the other looking "possible, but deeply aggressive and bigoted." Making any third options, plausibly anyway, the real victors. (So the best off religions/irreligions here might be the ones not playing, like maybe Baha'i or Eastern Orthodox Christianity or something)
Both probably do number one, but I think atheists do it a bit more. Now
4. Assuming everybody believes our source of proof is accepted as proof by all people
Is something I see more with Christians and Muslims than others. People will quote the Qur'an or Bible as proof of the Qur'an or Bible.
I kind of see how this started. Originally many Evangelicals were likely dealing with other kinds of Christians and sometimes Jews. So trying to show that Catholicism or Orthodoxy or whatever are not justified by the Bible meant something. However trying to show atheism or Buddhism or something is not justified by the Bible doesn't really show anything about those. However I guess they were either unwilling or unable to adapt.
Islam has dealt with non-Muslims from the start, most Protestantism started in places already at least nominally Christian, so I'm not as clear there. I would guess a great many Muslims still live in majority Muslim nations so maybe think more of backsliding Muslims than people of totally different faiths. Also I know Muslims feel the Qur'an is "truer" to the person of Jesus than Christianity is to him. So they may feel quoting from both the Qur'an and the Gospels is useful in "reaching" Christians. (And that quoting it on Moses is useful to reaching Jews I suppose) Still for people not "Of the Book" I'm not sure what their thinking is. Possibly many Muslims are mostly just dealing with "People of the Book."
Not to carry too far off topic, you do have some very good points I would like to elaborate on. You are probably correct that Christians have most often had other Christians to disagree with and the Bible would have been a mutually agreed upon source of Proof.
You are also correct in that the majority of the word's Muslims live in predominately Muslim Nations, and have never experienced views that differ from the Qur'an. What is being seen today are former Christians debating with Christians. Like ex-smokers who are adamant over smoking issues we ex-Christians tend to be more anti-Christianity than those who lived their entire life as Muslims. We are the ones most likely to use the bible in our arguments. In the Americas especially many Muslims are former Christians. Very often former clergy. If I have my statistics right the largest group of Americans that revert to Islam are college educated Females followed closely by Christian clergyman.
I like your list, Woodrow - & your purpose behind it. Causes me to reconsider my communication.
People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
2 more I'd add... *Care about the person above any disagreements. *Admit you're imperfect... realize how your psychology (study of the soul) is affecting the discussion.
In some ways, I see agnostics as more spiritual than both theists & atheists.
Agnostics don't claim to know what they don't know.
IMO, God is the searching & striving... without ever completely "arriving."
Yet, God is also the stillness... of being in the moment.
And God is also beyond words... just experiencing.
Thank you those are 2 very good additons.
9. We often show no care or concern for the person we disagree with.
This is a very common trait we all have. Sadly it is true, we care more about proving a point than helping or understanding. We do need to show we care about the person above any disagreements.
10. We tend to speak as if we are perfect.
We all suffer from egotism and think our replies are perfect. This comes across as arrogance and the best it can do is make us obnoxious. We come across as being incapable of Admitting we're imperfect... or realize how our psychology (study of the soul) is affecting the discussion.
It seems we now have 10 good points to think about anytime we have a disagreement over religious beliefs.
1. Demeaning a religion you disagree with.
This seems to be the most common error we make. Showing what you perceive as errors in another person's beliefs does not equate to meaning you are correct. It comes across as evidence you are prejudiced and a bigot.
2. Issuing the challenge to prove you are wrong.
We are the ones claiming to be true. A person disagreeing with us has no responsibility to prove we are wrong. The Burden is upon us to submit reason we believe we are correct. to do other wise only makes us look like we have no logical reason to believe what we believe.
3. Failure to distinguish between our opinion and what our belief says.
We all have opinions and we all are quick to express them. We even have opinions about what we believe our faith is. But if we fail to distinguish between our opinion and actual doctrine, we risk spreading error about our own faith. Sometimes our own opinion can be quite ridiculous.
4. Assuming everybody believes our source of proof is accepted as proof by all people
We have to come to an understanding that no matter how much we believe our scripture to be true, not everybody does. We need to accept we will often come across people that believe our scripture to be false, misleading and evil. These are the ones it is a waste of time to quote scripture to. to speak with people, One needs to speak in terms they accept.
5. Resorting to personal attacks against anyone who believes different from you.
It should be obvious that this only arouses anger and/or hurt feelings. It also comes across as ignorance as it means you do not have the knowledge to reply with facts and are limited to an emotional response.
6. Failing to see that just because a person disagrees with us, does not mean they are evil.
Us theists do have a tendency to come across as being arrogant and self righteous. We do come across as bigoted haters of all people except those who have views that do not differ from ours.
7. Disagreeing with others as a personal issue.
When we make our disagreement about another person's beliefs a personal issue, we often become what we dislike. It is not possible to force our beliefs upon another without it bringing up rejection, as we are asking a person to become what we are and we do not look to be very admirable. A personal disagreement, is just that-- personal. A reflection of an egotistical mind worthy only of ridicule.
8. Presenting what we believe as being absolute, without indisputable proof.
While it is good to have total faith in the truth of what we believe, We only make ourselves look foolish if we present it as indisputable truth and offer nothing except we have faith it is true, Opinions are fine as long as we identify them as opinions and present reason for our opinions.
9. We often show no care or concern for the person we disagree with.
This is a very common trait we all have. Sadly it is true, we care more about proving a point than helping or understanding. We do need to show we care about the person above any disagreements.
10. We tend to speak as if we are perfect.
We all suffer from egotism and think our replies are perfect. This comes across as arrogance and the best it can do is make us obnoxious. We come across as being incapable of Admitting we're imperfect... or realize how our psychology (study of the soul) is affecting the discussion.
While we all have a need and right to defend what we believe or do not believe and a desire to correct what we deem to be errors, it need not be hostile. If we can not discuss our religious beliefs out of love and carrying for our fellow humans, are we not only doing a disservice, but also being hypocrites. All of which only makes us look to be ignorant, foolish or both.
Feel free to add more to the list. there is no law that says we have to stop at 10.
Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-05-2011 at 12:29 AM..
Woodrow, you are looking better all the time and so does Thom R. I'd propose you as moderator for an Islamic board, except that hiving the Muslims off would prevent discussion which is what the board's all about.
I wonder whether we atheists could consider 10 ways is which we can make atheism look foolish - as I'm sure we can.
1. Saying that all religions do nothing but evil.
2. Dismissing unexplained events as just superstition and not scientifically possible.
3. Using mockery and slogans instead of explanations.
4. Arguing that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were not 'really' atheists.
5. Breathing threats of abolition against religion and everything to do with it.
6. Claiming that whatever we don't know about doesn't exist.
7. Claiming that anyone who believes in a religion has got to be stupid or insane
8. Picking on some evils done by religious persons as evidence the religion is untrue.
9. Finding a few errors in a Holy Book and dismissing the whole book on that basis.
10. Arguing that, because science has explained a lot of things we can assume it will explain everything else.
And of course, presenting a flawed or inaccurate argument or misrepresentation of the other person's argument. That can rebound badly, if the other fellow picks it up. Though they usually don't as far as I can recall. They are too busy not listening.
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