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But it seems that God Himself was the bad thing happening to a good person. After all, He caused it all to happen. (I am using the capitalizations strictly as a matter of common usage.) Isn't that a bit like torturing a pet to find out how much it will take before it wants nothing further to do with you? Very mean-spirited (no pun intended), to say the least.
He certainly does come off looking very badly! Some scholars have posited that the prologue and epilogue - in which the satan is blamed for the evil, and God rewards Job in the end with 'more stuff' and a long life - was inserted by a reader who just could not handle the blasphemous nature of the poetic section. It's also been posited that the epilogue, proluge came first - it appears like a folktale - and the sophisticated poetic section was added later. Ask any translator of the work how difficult it is to translate - it's one of the most difficult, and it has suffered from various pious changes in the text. I won't go into details here, but they can be looked up if needed: various statements were changed to soften the blow of their message. We can confirm this now with older manuscripts and targums of Job than previously available.
The same goes for the intrusion of Elihu near the end - he breaks the pattern of the book, is in a different style of writing, and just clashes with the whole spirit of the book. It appears that some devout readers might have inserted him to attempt to answer Job themselves, after finding no satisfatory explanation for Job's questions.
In the book, it's very clear that it is God who is the cause of all good and evil. I quoted a memorable line earlier:
"If not God, then who?"
The satan is not quite yet the character known simply as Satan, and his role is more of a prosecutor or court spy: the Accuser. While Yahweh gives the Satan permission to afflict Job, the actions are still attributed to Yahweh. The poetic section is much more damning of God's behavior, and does not mention the Satan. One must read the two sections separately sometimes - they are linked, but can easily be separated.
But it seems that God Himself was the bad thing happening to a good person. After all, He caused it all to happen. (I am using the capitalizations strictly as a matter of common usage.) Isn't that a bit like torturing a pet to find out how much it will take before it wants nothing further to do with you? Very mean-spirited (no pun intended), to say the least.
Hmm, well, find the author of the book of Job, and take the issue up with him! That was what I said in the second sentence of the post that you quoted, ya know.
Writers used literary license back then, just as they do know. And maybe the author didn't think much of God.
Nowhere in the Tanakh does God, or any of his worshippers, indicate that the reason for worshipping him is because of death, or the fear of death's consequences in an afterlife. Religion is not even called such - it's labelled as "The Fear of the LORD" - or "The Fear of Yahweh", to be more specific.
I don't see any difference between fear of death or fear of Yahweh.
Anywayz you proved my point that without fear (read: death) religion is irrelevant. I mean if people where immortal fear would be irrelevant and without fear religion becomes irrelevant.
Originally Posted by whoppers I don't see any difference between fear of death or fear of Yahweh.
Anywayz you proved my point that without fear (read: death) religion is irrelevant. I mean if people where immortal fear would be irrelevant and without fear religion becomes irrelevant.
Well, if you grab your handy-dandy concordance and do a good investigation on the Fear of Yahweh - you'll find that it only applies when used in regards to unrepetant sinners. Otherwise, it's an aspect of God that is well-known (his awesome, or terrible, power) and is the same thing as saying "religion of Yahweh" essentially.
I could start quoting verses galore, but I'm too tired.
A name for God that is fairly interesting comes from Genesis 31: The Fear of Isaac. If you're interested, check it out. It's a similar phenomenon to The Shield of Jacob as a name for God.
Apart from that - like I've said - much of the Tanakh teaches that obedience and fear of God properly performed results in a prosperous life, and that's it. PERIOD. Read the Torah and the extensive legal covenant made between Israel and God: it's results in strictly earthly benefits for the people. This is exactly what the Book of Job is railing against: the fact that Job has just one life, it is fleeting, filled with pain, and not with the good things promised by Yahweh to believers. Notice the end of the story: is Job rewarded in the afterlife, or in the present life? It's the present life, in case you don't bother to look it up. There's a reason why the Tanakh is so silent on the issue of the afterlife. Living forever is relegated to the obviously mythic and folkloristic Primeval History of Genesis 1-11 - where it belongs; even there it is lost, forever. Nowhere does it hint that man has any possibility of regaining that lost state. Does the snake have the oppurtunity of regaining his limbs if he does good? Ha! It doesn't belong in a realistic conversation on the suffering of the innocent, and the question of God's justice towards mankind.
Hellenistic teachings and Christian theology clung to this idea of 'justice deferred until after death". Well - we are discussing an entirely different collection of writings - the Tanakh - and the ideas the writers were trying to convey. Not the ideas of later interpreters.
Apart from that - like I've said - much of the Tanakh teaches that obedience and fear of God properly performed results in a prosperous life, and that's it. PERIOD. Read the Torah and the extensive legal covenant made between Israel and God: it's results in strictly earthly benefits for the people. This is exactly what the Book of Job is railing against: the fact that Job has just one life, it is fleeting, filled with pain, and not with the good things promised by Yahweh to believers.
For some reason you keep talking about an afterlife, while I've never mentioned it myself.
I personally do not believe in an afterlife.
FYI I'm not a Christian, although I do follow Jesus. I follow Jesus because doing good is its own reward; I've done evil and do not like hurting others.
Quote:
It doesn't belong in a realistic conversation on the suffering of the innocent, and the question of God's justice towards mankind.
Like Buddhists I agree that life is suffering, only the dead do not suffer.
I personally do not care about creation myths & the afterlife and do not see justice in God bringing death to creation only because mankind has dropped the ball. I find death to be perfectly natural.
Which has lead me to believe that there is no perfection (like saints & heaven).
Originally Posted by whoppersBecause of the fact that everyone (even those who played no role in The Fall) is touched by death. Without death religion would be irrelevant.
There are religions that don't have afterlife beliefs. Even from a purely evolutionary perspective religions would or could remain relevant on issues of group-cohesion and purpose. A good deal of Judaism lasting isn't about fear of death, but the cultural cohesion or togetherness it brings. Many of the Jews who don't believe in an afterlife maintain a connection to the religion anyway.
Even from a purely evolutionary perspective religions would or could remain relevant on issues of group-cohesion and purpose. A good deal of Judaism lasting isn't about fear of death, but the cultural cohesion or togetherness it brings.
True, but this us (Jews) vs. them (non-Jews) attitude ain't a good thing either.
For some reason (only?) monotheistic religions, like Judaism, are intolerant to other religions because they keep trying to convert them.
Originally Posted by whoppers For some reason you keep talking about an afterlife, while I've never mentioned it myself.
I personally do not believe in an afterlife.
FYI I'm not a Christian, although I do follow Jesus. I follow Jesus because doing good is its own reward; I've done evil and do not like hurting others.
Like Buddhists I agree that life is suffering, only the dead do not suffer.
I personally do not care about creation myths & the afterlife and do not see justice in God bringing death to creation only because mankind has dropped the ball. I find death to be perfectly natural.
Which has lead me to believe that there is no perfection (like saints & heaven).
Okay, thanks for clarifying. I got the impression that you were using Original Sin as your arguing point. My mistake. I'm merely trying to argue from what is written in the various stories being dicusses, without any judgement on how true or false it is.
From what you're writing NOW - it seems you're perfectly in line with the idea of Sheol (though not in those words): the common grave.
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That was what I said in the second sentence of the post that you quoted, ya know.
I don't see any difference between fear of death or fear of Yahweh.
I mean if people where immortal fear would be irrelevant and without fear religion becomes irrelevant.
