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I have no denied that religion is used to cause harm. I know that people use religion to cause harm. No all people use religion to do so. What has been claimed is that religion does more harm than good. I have not seen any data that says it does MORE harm than good. You keep showing me things that are already known and can be seen. Yes religion can and is used to cause harm. But, this does not mean that it causes MORE harm than good.
I guess I can assume you have no such data that proves your claim that religion does more harm than good.
It has been shown often, but if you just refuse to see it for what it is, I can't help you....There is no way I'm digging up the data AGAIN for one who is in such deep denial.
Because Atheists are usually atheists because we view the spiritual/religious stuff with logical vision.
And since the logical way of seeing it can only contradict the alogical teachings of religion our question to you is the other side of the same coin, being
"how can you not see that all you believe in is a tale-based fairy-tale by just applying some simple logic?"
And because of this the debate between these two points of views will always be dead.
I can't phantom how the hell you can believe what you do, and you probably can't imagine what kind of idiot like me doesn't understand there is a God up there.
Since the only logic that can be applied to religion is opinion based logic, your logic is no different than someone who finds it logical that there is a god or that their spiritual beliefs are truth. And I can see how you would could come to a logical belief that there is no god up there. I don't believe in a god, but I can also see how people can believe there is a god up there.
Also, there is no factual logic to determine if their really is a god or not or if various spiritual beliefs re correct or not. All you can apply is opinion based logic. To you it doesn't make sense, to me it does.
It has been shown often, but if you just refuse to see it for what it is, I can't help you....There is no way I'm digging up the data AGAIN for one who is in such deep denial.
If you can prove to me, using unbiased, unopinionated sources that religion causes more harm than good, I will change my view. Nobody has ever posted statistical data, from an unopinionated, unbias source, to prove your point. If such data exists, I would love to see it. But simply posting various wars, tribal disputes, and stuff from the past, just won't cut it. Yes, people use religion to do bad things, people also use it to do good things. Please, end this circular debate and put forth some data. Otherwise, stop stating that what you say without some statistics.
The thing is, raison, (as regards your original OP question..) we atheists generally use logic to sort through most of life's mysteries. It's the type of person we seem to be, mostly. Example: people don't become scientists and then get logical and rational. I'd say they had those qualities before they realized that the mentality and processes fit them, and they could fit in well in such an "explicable" world. We're also not deeply threatened or un-nerved by numerous unanswered questions, realizing that even the most difficult questions and their answers will possibly or likely come to the fore eventually. They seem to be doing that, so far, would you not agree?
When they or I apply/applied such a rational thought process to the illogic of religion, at it's every aspect, it predictably fails. Spirituality as a basis for living one's life also fails, for the most part. Not just Christianity, but certainly the far more outrageous & individuality-eroding and egregious pursuits of Islam, and in fact, any mandated-ruleset thinking paradigm. After all, if we don't apply logical thought to our world, then we're just running around like some spun-up chickens, right? That can't be personally satisfying for anyone, no matter how supportive one's communal system might superficially and initially seem to be.
I once toyed with becoming a Buddhist. I thought their ideas on all life were respectful and intense. They are, in fact, and I hold them in high respect. This was also back in my early 20s, when I was abandoning Christianity, but when I also errantly thought that I surely had to have something spiritually based in my life, something with a handy name on it. A sort of badge, so I could say, proudly, "Well, I'm a Buddhist!" for instance.
Then, as my mind, and my education in biology grew and matured, I realized I was distinctly unhappy with any such labels with their necessary strictures.
After all, who, in their right minds anyways, wants to be limited by the behavioral and thinking rules set by others? Those others that we know have developed those rules precisely to manage and handle the masses of those who prefer to not use their own minds or who feel a strong necessity to be a bleatingly agreeable member of a "named" group?
The Roman Catholic Church started the Inquisition in 1184, then again in 1478, then again in 1536, then again in 1542.
The 'troubles' in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics started around the late 1960s.
The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina between Catholics, Muslim and Serbian Orthodox.
The civil war in Sudan between Muslims, Christians and Animists.
Let me continue.
-The Middle east - Jews, Christians, Muslims, three of the worlds biggest religions fighting like a bunch of heathen.
-Sri Lanka - Buddhists and Hindus
-Somalia - Wahhabi and Witches
-Thailand - Buddhists and Muslims
-Pakistan - Suni and Shi'ites
The list goes on stretching way back to the beginning of time. Some wars are not only religious based but also culture/land/etc but a common theme of religion against religion is rife throughout history.
Even today, in this country, the US, religious groups instigate hatred and unrest. The Westboro Baptist Church immediately springs to mind but this is certainly not the only religious organisation that promotes division and hatred against their fellow man.
To deny religion causes hatred and bigotry is foolish, all these groups are certainly not sitting around the campfire singing Kumbayah together.
life feeds off life in order to live, not just survive. Battle is a given with the known distribution of wealth in understood history. The only real question is, does a religion which is being authentically represented stimulate war? I think the answer is a definite YES, with a definite BUT ONLY, if the religion fully believes in a hell to the sinner theme. Many do, but some do not, in fact RC is so confused the religion contradicts itself in their formal catechism and dictionairy including many writings over and over, Ive been looking at the baloney and its a total farce.
So...I agree with you but fully believe its due to the brain dead mis-interpretation and ancient writings..Obviously if peace was the root of a persons belief objectives the philosophy would assist avoiding war....I can't speak for other religions but most I think target peace and make a mess of it....its the leaders fault in my books
...not the people who work and do the best they can with their neighbor only to find out the freaky leaders can't do their best with global partners...In opinion if man wants war he will find a way to justify , religion or no religion...
Your using logic and reason as if it can only be used in one way. You cannot use logic to prove or disprove any religion. You can use personal (opinion) logic and reason to come to a conclusion why you choose to believe what you do.
You sound pretty confused. Now you're saying that you do use logic to conclude your theistic beliefs?
You say religion is alogical and define alogical as "not based upon logic or reasoned argument" and when we say "ya that's why we don't believe that stuff" you turn around and say no it really is based on logic and reason?
The thing is, raison, (as regards your original OP question..) we atheists generally use logic to sort through most of life's mysteries. It's the type of person we seem to be, mostly. Example: people don't become scientists and then get logical and rational. I'd say they had those qualities before they realized that the mentality and processes fit them, and they could fit in well in such an "explicable" world. We're also not deeply threatened or un-nerved by numerous unanswered questions, realizing that even the most difficult questions and their answers will possibly or likely come to the fore eventually. They seem to be doing that, so far, would you not agree?
I understand that atheists are this
Way and why they choose to believe what they do. And I do agree that as we progress things have a way of being answered. I love science and according to all logic tests I have taken, I am a very logical person. I just see that there is two ways to approach religion with logic, one can be applied correctly, while the other cannot. Logic based on opinion can be applied, while logic based on evidence cannot. Basically, you can't use logic to absolutely prove or disprove it. Would you agree?
Quote:
When they or I apply/applied such a rational thought process to the illogic of religion, at it's every aspect, it predictably fails. Spirituality as a basis for living one's life also fails, for the most part. Not just Christianity, but certainly the far more outrageous & individuality-eroding and egregious pursuits of Islam, and in fact, any mandated-ruleset thinking paradigm. After all, if we don't apply logical thought to our world, then we're just running around like some spun-up chickens, right? That can't be personally satisfying for anyone, no matter how supportive one's communal system might superficially and initially seem to be.
I fail to see how living a spiritual life, as long as it is done on your own terms, fails. I live a very spiritually driven life and it has served me quite well in everything I do. Now, you won't find me praying for something to happen, I know that if you want something to happen you need to direct your life and thoughts to that goal and work towards it. Simply praying or hoping for your time or chance to come is hardly productive, although some people do get lucky and it is simply by chance that it happened that way.
Quote:
I once toyed with becoming a Buddhist. I thought their ideas on all life were respectful and intense. They are, in fact, and I hold them in high respect. This was also back in my early 20s, when I was abandoning Christianity, but when I also errantly thought that I surely had to have something spiritually based in my life, something with a handy name on it. A sort of badge, so I could say, proudly, "Well, I'm a Buddhist!" for instance.
Then, as my mind, and my education in biology grew and matured, I realized I was distinctly unhappy with any such labels with their necessary strictures.
I think this is where I differ from most religious and spiritual people. I don't follow and dogmatic rules to tell me ho to be spiritual. I decide how to do that and how to apply it to my life. But I do understand what you are saying.
Quote:
After all, who, in their right minds anyways, wants to be limited by the behavioral and thinking rules set by others? Those others that we know have developed those rules precisely to manage and handle the masses of those who prefer to not use their own minds or who feel a strong necessity to be a bleatingly agreeable member of a "named" group?
Hope you can keep your head above such antics!
Well like I said above. I don't allow anyone to tell me how to behave and think based on their rules. But as you said, some people want to be told how to live their life, these people need constant direction that has a possible reward at the end. Without it, they would be lost and without passion in some cases. For this reason religion is still necessary. Without religion to guide them, they would be like chicken with their head cut off. Would you want that for these people? It's no surprise that everyone thinks slightly different than others, this doesn't mean wither is wrong. In life, not all things are definite and governed by simply yes or no, true or false, sometimes there is that possibility that both are wrong or both are right.
Thank you for being so respectful. I always love reading your posts.
You sound pretty confused. Now you're saying that you do use logic to conclude your theistic beliefs?
You say religion is alogical and define alogical as "not based upon logic or reasoned argument" and when we say "ya that's why we don't believe that stuff" you turn around and say no it really is based on logic and reason?
What I mean by alogical is not the same as illogical. Alogical meaning beyond the scope of logic. You CAN apply logic when making an opinion based decision in regards to religion and spiritualism. You CANNOT use evidence based logic on a subject that has no evidence to support a definitive answer. I cannot say to you that my believes are the absolute truth without providing evidence to support my claim just as you cannot claim to know with absolute certainty that my beliefs are false. If there suddenly was evidence to prove your claim, I should hope that I hold myself accountable to alter my claim to support the evidence. I feel sorry for anyone who is so set in their ways that they deny the possibility that they could be wrong.
Those things show that money, property, love, video games, television, and books cause the same thing. You now have to prove that religion causes more harm than good. That it causes more harm than everything else that can cause harm, this includes science.
And a few minor wars, still something less than a million dead, so far, or the movement to express the hate of bronze age ignorance a.k.a. religion.
I guess after decades(?) of cherry picking bible passages, you simply can't help but cherry pick reason.
What I mean by alogical is not the same as illogical. Alogical meaning beyond the scope of logic. You CAN apply logic when making an opinion based decision in regards to religion and spiritualism. You CANNOT use evidence based logic on a subject that has no evidence to support a definitive answer. I cannot say to you that my believes are the absolute truth without providing evidence to support my claim just as you cannot claim to know with absolute certainty that my beliefs are false. If there suddenly was evidence to prove your claim, I should hope that I hold myself accountable to alter my claim to support the evidence. I feel sorry for anyone who is so set in their ways that they deny the possibility that they could be wrong.
That sounds a bit confused to me, too. Logic applied to opinions seems pretty speculative unless some evidence or negative evidence is being used to provide some pointers.
In the case of theism or atheism, where religions and personal gods are concerned, there is evidence. The Holy books don't stack up. The miracles don't seem persuasive. The personal experiences look more in the mind than something outside. To not base opinion on that is imply ignoring valid information.
With the more abstract god - concepts, we don't have much data and I get your idea of a-logical rather illogical. The result of that is to say that we don't know either way but there is no good reason to think that it matters very much unless it affects us here - and then we are back again into the earth - based evidence (and negative evidence) ignoring or denying of which is illogical, or unlogical, not a-logical.
"I feel sorry for anyone who is so set in their ways that they deny the possibility that they could be wrong." I agree. That is why I feel a bit sorry for those who firmly and trenchantly believe particular faith - based opinions where there is either no knowledge either way or the data really does not support it. And that's why I, as an atheist, try to apply logical assessment to what I am willing to give credence - always with a mind open to some new views and information.
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