So what do Mormons believe about Jesus? (LDS, Holy Spirit, Ghost)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by pjlamb

On the surface many things about Christianity and Mormonism seem the same. However, we differ on the very nature of God himself. For example the Trinity, we believe God is manifested in 3 persons, yet all are God. Like h2o. Ice, water, and water vapor. All h2o, 3 forms.

Perhaps you didn't read my Post #2.

Also Mormons believe there are an infinite number of Gods, right?

Uh... no. What we believe is that God is "the God of Gods" (Psalm 136:2) and "a great God... above all gods" (Psalm 95:3).

Only one God of Earth, but when you reach the celestial kingdom you can become a god of your own planet, correct?

I'm sure you're familiar with C.S. Lewis. He, of course, was never a Mormon but a prominent Anglican theologian. He once made a statement once that very closely approximates our belief. Here’s what he had to say:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Beyond that, we can merely speculate. I do know that in 63 years of attending LDS worship services and religion classes, I have never once heard it said that I can "become a god of [my] own planet." Furthermore, you could go to the Church's official websites, www.mormon.org or www.lds.org and search through literally tens of thousands of pages of writings by the Church's leadership and never find a single commentary to this effect. That alone ought to be pretty indicative of the fact that this is more a non-Mormon spin on Mormon theology than anything else.

Aside from the surface similarities, we are totally different faiths.

Yes, aside from the beliefs we have in common, we are different. Aside from what Baptists have in common with Catholics, they're different, too. What we have in common is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world to pay for our sins and thereby give us the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with God. Not exactly "totally different faiths," in my opinion.

But our values are the same. We try to convert one another out of concern for each other's souls, but somehow we get nasty about it.

Yes, that tends to happen, and it's very unfortunate.

I think the only problem with Mormons saying they are Christian is the term "Christian" implies the triune God who is the only God there ever was or will be anywhere in the universe.

You're right. Today it implies a belief in the Trinity. What do you think it implied during the first three centuries of Christianity's existance? I believe it implied a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world.

Mormons do believe different things about God based on their prophet Joseph Smith.

You're right again. We believe different things about God than are expressed in the 4th and 5th century creeds, but there is not one single solitary thing that the Bible says about God that we reject.

There should be some distinction between the two because they are different.

They are. How about traditional Christianity verses restorationist Christianity?

And Christians have been calling themselves Christian for thousands of years. We had the name first, regardless if you think we've had it all wrong. Out of courtesty for Christians I think Mormons should create another name for themselves.

Well, not all Christians have been calling themselves Christian for thousands of years. The Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists and many others just started doing so three and a half centuries before the Mormons did. I realize that many people would prefer that we not call ourselves Christians, but if we truly believe we are Christians, wouldn't it be just a little bit dishonest for us to deny that fact?

[Danite]

I know Heavenly Father clothed us with spiritual bodies in pre-existence. He gave us bodies of flesh and blood in this mortal life. Determining on how with pass the test in this earthly life, our bodies will then be transformed into whatever glory we are worthy to preside in. I also know that Joseph Smith taught that we began as intelligence, something that God didn't create, but has existed before the foundations of the heavens and this earth.

I believe that God knows the past, present and the immediate future which determined by our thoughts and the intents of our hearts which freely belong to us. Our Heavenly Father knows those thoughts, therefore he can shape and mold what goes on in this world with our consciences through the light of Christ or the Holy Ghost. I also believe that there are eternal laws that even our Father needs to abide by. One of those laws is our agency--in order for our thoughts to be completely ours, so we are accountable for them during the day of judgement than they must be ours alone. No one, including God can know those thoughts before we make them, or they would not be our thoughts. If our destiny is already completely predestined before we began this life than we never had the true agency to change the course.

[Epicabundance]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Perhaps you didn't read my Post #2.

Uh... no. What we believe is that God is "the God of Gods" (Psalm 136:2) and "a great God... above all gods" (Psalm 95:3).

I'm sure you're familiar with C.S. Lewis. He, of course, was never a Mormon but a prominent Anglican theologian. He once made a statement once that very closely approximates our belief. Here’s what he had to say:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Beyond that, we can merely speculate. I do know that in 63 years of attending LDS worship services and religion classes, I have never once heard it said that I can "become a god of [my] own planet." Furthermore, you could go to the Church's official websites, www.mormon.org or www.lds.org and search through literally tens of thousands of pages of writings by the Church's leadership and never find a single commentary to this effect. That alone ought to be pretty indicative of the fact that this is more a non-Mormon spin on Mormon theology than anything else.

Yes, aside from the beliefs we have in common, we are different. Aside from what Baptists have in common with Catholics, they're different, too. What we have in common is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world to pay for our sins and thereby give us the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with God. Not exactly "totally different faiths," in my opinion.

Yes, that tends to happen, and it's very unfortunate.

You're right. Today it implies a belief in the Trinity. What do you think it implied during the first three centuries of Christianity's existance? I believe it implied a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world.

You're right again. We believe different things about God than are expressed in the 4th and 5th century creeds, but there is not one single solitary thing that the Bible says about God that we reject.

They are. How about traditional Christianity verses restorationist Christianity?

Well, not all Christians have been calling themselves Christian for thousands of years. The Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists and many others just started doing so three and a half centuries before the Mormons did. I realize that many people would prefer that we not call ourselves Christians, but if we truly believe we are Christians, wouldn't it be just a little bit dishonest for us to deny that fact?

Thanks for your response. I can't speak for your beliefs but you basically just said everything I said about Mormonism is wrong, and everything I believe, you believe the same, apart from the trinity? Yes, we will attain some degree of glorification in heaven, but still lower than God. And denominational differences are small and in the "non-essentials". (Infant baptism or adult? Sprinkling or Immersion baptism? Confirmation? First Communtion? Drinking alcohol or no?) There are also different worship styles but all beliefs necessary for salvation are the same. I don't believe Jesus set up a church, his followers did that to carry out His commandment of spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth. There is really no reason for different denominations but people are not perfect, so the church is not perfect. In reality, the true church is an invisible one, made up of the genuine believers everywhere. Only God knows it's membership. I do know you consider yourselves Christians, and in fact the only true Christians because the rest of us are part of the "apostate" church. (Remember, Mormons attacked Christians first.) But I'm okay with "restoration Christians". If you are willing, and since you told me what I think I know about your faith is wrong, what do you believe about your purpose here on earth, if not to become gods? And what about your faith makes it the "restored, true gospel"? What about traditional Christianity makes it "apostate"? I am not attacking your faith, I have a sincere desire to understand, and I sincerely desire for you to understand your misconceptions about my faith. It sounds like you acknowlege you have very different beliefs, yet only told me what we had in common. I don't want to read your church's website because all I am interested in is what sets you apart from me. Your church's website, and your church's members, all seem to focus on how much alike we are. (Aside from being upfront about your belief about the trinity.) And why emphasize our exalted status in heaven based on C.S. Lewis writings unless it is to justify the belief that humans can become gods? (on a side note, do you know C.S. Lewis was openly critical of Mormonism?) I do understand and respect our different beliefs are based not on the Bible but the writings of Joseph Smith. You believe him to be a prophet so it makes sense you believe what he said about God. And I know you believe in the Bible "as far as it is translated correctly". But I am curious now since you say humans cannot become Gods, and there are not an infinite number of Gods. I am almost certain I learned that somewhere. I have read multiple sources to get my information, not just what you call "anti-Mormon" sources. I look forward to learning!

[modeerf]

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

I've been told that I don't know what they believe on another thread.

I'm calling you out, mormons.

Is Jesus God? Do you believe that Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are 3 persons, 1 God?

Jesus didn't even believe he was THe Father.

Jesus doesn't know everything that The Father (GOD) knows.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by pjlamb

Thanks for your response. I can't speak for your beliefs but you basically just said everything I said about Mormonism is wrong, and everything I believe, you believe the same, apart from the trinity?

I didn't mean to imply that it's totally wrong, but that the way in which you understand and interpret it is not entirely accurate. Nor can I recall saying that everything you and I believe, aside from the Trinity, is the same either, but I do think we have more in common than you wish to acknowledge, and I think that the differences between many of the Christian denominations in existance today are actually quite significant. You and I haven't actually talked about very many of our beliefs. Many individuals on this forum have discovered that many LDS beliefs are very much in line with the beliefs of traditional Christians. I have found that many Christians besides Mormons believe in the necessity of baptism, in the need for both faith and obedience in our lives, in a literal, physical resurrection of all mankind. Sometimes non-LDS Christians are surprised to learn of the many, many beliefs we share, in addition to those in which we differ.

Yes, we will attain some degree of glorification in heaven, but still lower than God.

Agreed.

And denominational differences are small and in the "non-essentials". (Infant baptism or adult? Sprinkling or Immersion baptism? Confirmation? First Communtion? Drinking alcohol or no?) There are also different worship styles but all beliefs necessary for salvation are the same.

How do you know that "all beliefs necessary for salvation are the same"? Maybe baptism really isn't necessary; many Christian denominations say it's not. May it really is necessary, but absolutely must be by immersion. These are just examples, but they are example of things that may very well matter a great deal to God. Who among us has God authorized to say what's "essential" and what's "non-essential"?

I don't believe Jesus set up a church, his followers did that to carry out His commandment of spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

That tells me you are not a Catholic. I don't care if you believe Jesus Christ established His Church or not, but roughly half of the world's Christians today are Catholic and believe He did. So do you not consider them to be Christians either?

There is really no reason for different denominations but people are not perfect, so the church is not perfect. In reality, the true church is an invisible one, made up of the genuine believers everywhere. Only God knows it's membership.

We actually believe in both an invisible and a visible (i.e. institutional) Church. I would agree with you that "the Church" (whichever one it may be) is not perfect. It's not perfect because the human beings running it aren't perfect.

I do know you consider yourselves Christians, and in fact the only true Christians because the rest of us are part of the "apostate" church. (Remember, Mormons attacked Christians first.) But I'm okay with "restoration Christians".

Protestantism emerged due to a belief that Catholicism was an "apostate Church." Mormons certainly aren't the first ones to say that those before them went astray. Actually, Mormons believe that all who look to Jesus Christ as their Savior and who seek to follow Him are "true Christians." While others want to exclude us from the Christian family, we are more than happy to include all who believe themselves to be Christians in our definition, regardless of whatever errors we might see in their doctrines. In terms of "who attacked first," I suppose the Catholics would say that the Protestants were guilty of that crime. Mormonism has always taught that there is good in pretty much all Churches. (Much to the chagrin of most Christians, we can even find good in most non-Christian religions.) When speaking to other people about our beliefs, we encourage them to bring with them all that is true about what they believe and see if we can add to that additional truth and greater understanding. For us, it's not so much a matter of right versus wrong, but a matter of degree of right.

If you are willing, and since you told me what I think I know about your faith is wrong, what do you believe about your purpose here on earth, if not to become gods?

In all honesty, I know literally thousands of practicing Latter-day Saints, and I don't know of a single, solitary one of them who even gives much thought to the possibility of someday becoming a god. I'd say we believe our purpose here on earth is to become the best children God could possible want us to be, to be faithful to our Savior in all we say and do, and to help as many of our fellow human beings return to His presence as possible. Seriously, if our focus on becoming gods was anywhere near what you seem to think it is, wouldn't you expect to hear it taught often (as opposed to virtually never) in our worship services?

And what about your faith makes it the "restored, true gospel"? What about traditional Christianity makes it "apostate"? I am not attacking your faith, I have a sincere desire to understand, and I sincerely desire for you to understand your misconceptions about my faith. It sounds like you acknowlege you have very different beliefs, yet only told me what we had in common. I don't want to read your church's website because all I am interested in is what sets you apart from me. Your church's website, and your church's members, all seem to focus on how much alike we are. (Aside from being upfront about your belief about the trinity.)

Honestly, this is a more difficult question than you might think. I am going to make a sincere attempt to enumerate some of the ways in which I believe traditional Christianity went astray. It may take me a day or so to actually formulate an answer that will be both comprehensive but not so long that you won't want to bother reading it.

And why emphasize our exalted status in heaven based on C.S. Lewis writings unless it is to justify the belief that humans can become gods?

C.S. Lewis's statement on man's potential to become godlike is simply the best-worded explanation I've ever heard on the subject. I used it because you asked the question and I thought it was a good answer.

I do understand and respect our different beliefs are based not on the Bible but the writings of Joseph Smith. You believe him to be a prophet so it makes sense you believe what he said about God.

Actually, I believe almost every LDS doctrine can be found in the Bible. I seldom draw from any uniquely LDS sources when explaining to people why we believe as we do.

But I am curious now since you say humans cannot become Gods, and there are not an infinite number of Gods. I am almost certain I learned that somewhere.

I'm sure you did, but I suspect that what you heard was an explanation by someone who doesn't really understand LDS theology all that well, and did not do a very good job of explaining it. Look at it this way... If you really wanted to understand Judaism, who do you really think would be your best source of information? Would it be a Muslim? Or would it be a Jew? Give that some thought, and you'll understand why I believe accurate sources of information are so essential.

Here's what I actually said (with regards to deification):

Beyond that, [i.e. the concept expressed by C.S. Lewis] we can merely speculate. I do know that in 63 years of attending LDS worship services and religion classes, I have never once heard it said that I can "become a god of [my] own planet."

And here's what I said (with regards to multiple gods):

We believe that God is "the God of Gods" (Psalm 136:2) and "a great God... above all gods" (Psalm 95:3).

Does that sound like we believe in "an infinite number of gods" to you? I suppose it could be construed that way, but it could also be construed to mean that we simply believe that the Bible refers to God as "a great God, who is above all gods." Most Christians simply assume that all references to "gods" must mean false Gods. We're more inclined to assume it's referring to beings which exist, but about whom we know nothing. All we're really doing is agreeing with what the Bible says, instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.

I have read multiple sources to get my information, not just what you call "anti-Mormon" sources. I look forward to learning!

You said you want to know what sets us apart. I can't tell you that until I know what you believe. What sets Mormonism apart from Catholicism is not the same thing that sets Mormonism apart from, say, Lutheranism. If you could tell me what your religious background is, it would make it easier for me to answer your questions. I would also appreciate it if you could tell me which beliefs you see as "essential" Christian doctrines (as opposed to "non-essential" ones. That way I could cover them first.

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

With respect to who we believe Jesus Christ to be, here is a statement from www.mormon.org, one of the Church's official websites:

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. The Holy Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ's mother was Mary, His father on earth was Joseph, that He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, and labored with Joseph as a carpenter. When he turned 30, He began a three-year ministry of teaching, blessing, and healing the people of the Holy Land. He also organized His Church and gave His apostles "power and authority" (Luke 9:1) to assist in His work.

But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer? Each of these titles point to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, he is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.

Is Jesus God? I'm not asking if he is A god. I would like you to answer if you believe that Jesus is God. That is the crux of the issue. Do you believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man?

Originally Posted by modeerf

Jesus didn't even believe he was THe Father.

Jesus doesn't know everything that The Father (GOD) knows.

No...he isn't the Father. He is the Son. The 2nd person of the Trinity. He voluntarily gave up some of the knowledge that he had as God when he became man. But he is fully God--just as he is fully man.

[june 7th]

Good morning everyone!

The OP of this thread is very specific, and is not one in which members should be scrutinizing Mormonism. As such, please stay on topic in addressing the OP. Rude and/or sarcastic posts regarding Mormonism will be deleted and infracted. I have included the OP below as a means of reminding everyone what it entails.

OP:

I've been told that I don't know what they believe on another thread.

Is Jesus God? Do you believe that Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are 3 persons, 1 God?


Thanks everyone.
~June

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by june 7th

Good morning everyone!

The OP of this thread is very specific, and is not one in which members should be scrutinizing Mormonism. As such, please stay on topic in addressing the OP. I have included the OP below as a means of reminding everyone what it entails.

OP:

I've been told that I don't know what they believe on another thread.

Is Jesus God? Do you believe that Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit are 3 persons, 1 God?


Thanks everyone.
~June

Thank you. I'm not trying to raise trouble, or get into senseless debate. I'd like for a mormon to answer the question. One particular mormon told me on another thread I did not know the beliefs of the mormon church, so I'd like it answered by a mormon, if they are willing.

[Katzpur]

I don't know how I could have been much more clear in answering your question first time around, Theo.

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

Is Jesus God?

Yes. He is every bit as divine as His Father and has been from the beginning.

I'm not asking if he is A god. I would like you to answer if you believe that Jesus is God. That is the crux of the issue. Do you believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man?

Yes.

What I don't believe is that He is simply one of three manifestations of a single substance. I believe (i.e. Mormons believe) that the "oneness" between the Father and the Son is not a physical one, but a spiritual one. They are "one" in will, purpose, mind and heart. Their unity in these things is absolute and perfect.

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes.

Yes.

Joseph Smith stated that he saw Jesus standing next to God. That implies either 2 beings, or 2 manifestations of God. Neither of those can be supported by the Bible.

Your answer does not seem to correlate to what LDS teachings are. Your church also teaches that Jesus is a sibling of Lucifer (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15). Does that mean Lucifer is also God?

James Talmage taught that the Trinity was 3 separate Gods. Do you ascribe to that, or was he wrong?

What I don't believe is that He is simply one of three manifestations of a single substance.

Of course not--that would be modalism.