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Theo, we both know that the bible makes statement about the earth being a disc, having 4 corners, being held up by pillers. In Matthew 4:8 Where the Satan takes Jesus to a tall mountian and shows him all the kingdoms of the earth, does this refer to a "flat earth" some will say yes, myself, I have never found in the bible to the exact reference of the earth being flat. With that being said, if you are going to hang all your "Christian apologetics" on the "flat eath argument" then you have a pretty weak argument.
Theo, I know you believe that the bible is the word of God and therefore should not be questioned, however, when absurdities arise that defy common sense it does bring one into questioning the validity of the statements. You replied in my post. "it's in the bible, you just have to accept it", my friend that isn't good enough.
Here are just a few absurdities, there are many, many more.
Genesis 30:37-39 Stripped sticks place in front of an animal will cause the off spring to be ringstraked, speckled, and spotted
Numbers 22:28-29 Here we have a talking ass (donkey) or was this an attempt to say that Balaam was talking out of his a**. Either way both are wrong.
Leviticus 11:20 Here in this verse we have God saying that fowls that creep on all four shall be an abomination. Fowls are birds, they've only have 2 legs, always have.
Leviticus 11:13-19 Here we have God calling a "Bat" a fowl, bats are mammals not fowl.
Joshua 10:12-13 Here is the famous, "Sun stood still in the sky" verse, we both know that the sun doesn't move (well except moving through the galaxy) it is the earth that is moving. So what would be the effect if the earth stopped, think about that.
I guess you'll come back with the ole standard reply "God can do anything", will good luck with that.
How much time & effort do you spend looking for these absurdities? Are you purposefully skimming over everything related to the actual Gospel?
Theo, we both know that the bible makes statement about the earth being a disc, having 4 corners, being held up by pillers. In Matthew 4:8 Where the Satan takes Jesus to a tall mountian and shows him all the kingdoms of the earth, does this refer to a "flat earth" some will say yes, myself, I have never found in the bible to the exact reference of the earth being flat. With that being said, if you are going to hang all your "Christian apologetics" on the "flat eath argument" then you have a pretty weak argument.
It was probably inside of a vision that Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
And my challenge to show me a verse that claims it didn't get answered. The Bible doesn't claim it. ...
Still waiting on that flat earth verse that you claimed to have.
A bit off-topic but to toss in the flat - earth case.
Genesis 1:6-7, "Let there be a firmament to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places...God separated the waters above the firmament from those below." The whole passage makes sense only if you imagine a space between waters with a dome "
1.4 "let there be lights in the firmament" clearly the stars and planets were trundling around the inside of the sky dome, and the waters above the dome were to provide the rain.
Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth." This clearly sees the earth a flat so that one could see to the ends of it if you were high enough. The curvature was presumably explained as being behind a dip in the flat land so you need a bit of height.
The NT has the same view, remarkably after Eratosthenes. Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...."
Psalm 24:2, "the world and all that is in it belong to the Lord; the earth and all who live on it are his. He built it on the deep waters beneath the earth and laid its foundations in the ocean depths," This fits in with the idea of a earth built on some foundations. It is hard to imagine them not being level.
Isaiah 40.22 refers to a flat disc - like circle (Chuwg) of the earth. A round earth would be 'duwr'.
Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball (duwr 1) ball, circle a) circle b) ball) into a large country" but chwgh always means (flat) circle, never a sphere.
Proverbs 8.27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" also refers to the compass - like circle of the earth.
Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretcheth out [his] rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass,b-mchwgh/mechuwgah [circle-instrument, compass] (Strongs concordances} and maketh it after the figure of a man ...
There are many references to the four corners, pillars and ends of the earth and the flood only makes sense with a circular flat earth surrounded by dyke - pent waters released when the fountains of the deep are opened. (Gen7.13) and are blown back behind the dykes when the wind blew (8.1). It makes sense as a flat - earth concept, not a round one.
As to the OP, the disbelief came through doubts raised about the factuality of the Bible through passages such as this and the disappointment came later.
Theo, we both know that the bible makes statement about the earth being a disc, having 4 corners, being held up by pillers.
Chapter and verse, please. Until then I'm going to call baloney.
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In Matthew 4:8 Where the Satan takes Jesus to a tall mountian and shows him all the kingdoms of the earth, does this refer to a "flat earth" some will say yes, myself, I have never found in the bible to the exact reference of the earth being flat.
The reference doesn't exist about a flat earth..maybe that's why. So Satan showed him a vision, or even just had him look around at all the kingdoms in view....ok?
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With that being said, if you are going to hang all your "Christian apologetics" on the "flat eath argument" then you have a pretty weak argument.
You're the one that first spouted off about the flat earth. If you're going to make the claim, I only ask that you back it up. At this point you're looking pretty silly.
A bit off-topic but to toss in the flat - earth case.
Genesis 1:6-7, "Let there be a firmament to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places...God separated the waters above the firmament from those below." The whole passage makes sense only if you imagine a space between waters with a dome "
Or maybe that there was water underground, while some was on the surface, "above the firmament"?
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1.4 "let there be lights in the firmament" clearly the stars and planets were trundling around the inside of the sky dome, and the waters above the dome were to provide the rain.
huh? verse 14 says that he put lights in the sky. Nothing about stars and planets in a dome.
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Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth." This clearly sees the earth a flat so that one could see to the ends of it if you were high enough. The curvature was presumably explained as being behind a dip in the flat land so you need a bit of height.
ahhhh....right......ok. wow...amazing how no one has ever taken that to mean a flat earth. It was a dream. Of a tree on the earth. Apparently really tall.
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The NT has the same view, remarkably after Eratosthenes. Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...."
Obviously it was either all of them in the immediate area, or he had some kind of vision. Do you really think he'd have been able to see that far from the top of a mountain?
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Psalm 24:2, "the world and all that is in it belong to the Lord; the earth and all who live on it are his. He built it on the deep waters beneath the earth and laid its foundations in the ocean depths," This fits in with the idea of a earth built on some foundations. It is hard to imagine them not being level.
lol...now you're just grasping.
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Isaiah 40.22 refers to a flat disc - like circle (Chuwg) of the earth. A round earth would be 'duwr'.
Actually..."circle of the earth" refers to a sphere.
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Isa 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball (duwr 1) ball, circle a) circle b) ball) into a large country" but chwgh always means (flat) circle, never a sphere.
Unless it's talking about the Earth.
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Proverbs 8.27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" also refers to the compass - like circle of the earth.
Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretcheth out [his] rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass,b-mchwgh/mechuwgah [circle-instrument, compass] (Strongs concordances} and maketh it after the figure of a man ...
There are many references to the four corners, pillars and ends of the earth and the flood only makes sense with a circular flat earth surrounded by dyke - pent waters released when the fountains of the deep are opened. (Gen7.13) and are blown back behind the dykes when the wind blew (8.1). It makes sense as a flat - earth concept, not a round one.
As to the OP, the disbelief came through doubts raised about the factuality of the Bible through passages such as this and the disappointment came later.
Honestly....come up with real argument, please. You just look bad when you bring this nonsense.
11-23-2011, 12:21 PM
2K5Gx2km
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Let's get something clear here, Theo. Despite the book, my stepping away from the Christian faith was NOT because I was disappointed in god. I don't think there was ever a time when I was, say, disappointed in god because I was conditioned not to even consider the thought. Christians are conditioned to accept that if there is any problem, THEY are ALWAYS the issue why a prayer is not answered or if things do not go their way.
I left Christianity strictly for intellectual reasons and it was AFTER that, I became very disappointed in myself that I wasted over 15 years of my life seeking "first the kingdom of god" and selling out to everything and anything that would further the Gospel. In my day, in a super strict, legalistic atmosphere where "the world" was to be shunned, I passed up on a potential basketball career, opportunities to travel, opportunities to date some more, opportunities to be more involved in school activities and so on. Such things are why I was disappointed in MYSELF. I was well aware no god had anything to do with it. I trusted in a book written by men and (at a point) trusted in people who I believed were entrusted with teaching me divine truth. Pile of crock that was. It makes even more sense now because I do NOT believe the biblical god exists so being disappointed in such a thing would be real stupid. It's like being disappointed santa did not come to my house.
Exactly the same for me.
You are taught that you deserve nothing and so like Paul you believe that with clothes and food you should be content - otherwise there is something wrong with you.
If your not content you pray for contentment.
If you still do not get it then your motive is wrong -even if you do not realize it - the heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it.
If you do not realize it you pray for God to reveal it so you can move forward with praying for contentment.
It's a constant introspective merry-go-round with endless justifications and rationalizations for the fact that reality does not match-up with the doctrines or idealism of Scripture. Of course another doctrine covers the whole thing - The Fall - how convenient - good luck showing this to be the case.
People are not perfect like Jesus - but neither should they be striving to be perfect like him. This is what your told - become more like Christ each day, deny self, walk in the Spirit, etc., etc. But his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Obviously living the Christian life should be as easy as pie. I do not know one person who thought they arrived to that standard. You're still a fallen creature trying to be like Jesus and yet the Bible tells us that the Spirit and Flesh war against one another - that does not sound like pie to me. Believe me I know all the rationalizations around these apparent bugs in the system - but that is just the point a system that need such manipulations in order to cohere is well - probably not from God - if there is one.
I do not going around sinning up a storm - I am actually pretty much the same person I was before - just without the yoke or the burden.
This psychology is not good for people. It reminds me of Spurgeon who in all his seriousness and integrity (as well as many other Christians) said - the world has yet to see what a man is capable of who is fully submitted to the Lord. Well we never will because it is not possible.
Like you, if I found myself that in dealing with God about issues in my life, there was always the perspective that it was me not God - precisely because God is God and we are fallen creatures deserving of hell and so anything that God does for us is a result of his grace. I did dot stop believing because of disappointment in God - like Job - though he slay yet will I trust him. I stopped because of serious intellectual problems and as such I cannot, in good conscience, believe anymore.
I mean unless you believe that the frontal lobe is a result of the fall I guess you can kick it to the curb and just continue on the merry-go-round.
I find it so odd that a faith that has such high stakes for humanity - eternal hell - has such massive epistemological knots and relies so heavily on a priori axioms and faith. That frontal lobe just keeps getting in the way
Or maybe that there was water underground, while some was on the surface, "above the firmament"?
huh? verse 14 says that he put lights in the sky. Nothing about stars and planets in a dome.
ahhhh....right......ok. wow...amazing how no one has ever taken that to mean a flat earth. It was a dream. Of a tree on the earth. Apparently really tall.
Obviously it was either all of them in the immediate area, or he had some kind of vision. Do you really think he'd have been able to see that far from the top of a mountain?
lol...now you're just grasping.
Actually..."circle of the earth" refers to a sphere.
Unless it's talking about the Earth.
Honestly....come up with real argument, please. You just look bad when you bring this nonsense.
You are the one looks bad when you simply deny that the hebrew term was circle and specifically a compass - inscribed circle and insist that it can mean round (which it doesn't) when applied to the earth with no justification other than you don't want to take the argument on board.
What lights do you suppose are in the firmament, fairy lights? And a dream or not doesn't matter. The point is that the idea the writer had in mind was a flat earth rather than a round one. And you are the one 'grasping' when you have to rewrite 'all' to mean 'all...in the immediate area'.
It doesn't matter. I don't mind since I just gave the case whether you want to listen or not. The main use of the case is that when the 'Bible science proof' claims are made, they can be knocked down.
You are the one looks bad when you simply deny that the hebrew term was circle and specifically a compass - inscribed circle and insist that it can mean round (which it doesn't) when applied to the earth with no justification other than you don't want to take the argument on board.
Whatever. The Hebrew scholars I've read seem to think it indicates round. But I'm sure you know better....
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What lights do you suppose are in the firmament, fairy lights? And a dream or not doesn't matter. The point is that the idea the writer had in mind was a flat earth rather than a round one. And you are the one 'grasping' when you have to rewrite 'all' to mean 'all...in the immediate area'.
What lights are you referring to in the firmament?
And yes--the dream does matter. The writer was recording the dream--not writing his own version of what the earth was like.
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It doesn't matter. I don't mind since I just gave the case whether you want to listen or not. The main use of the case is that when the 'Bible science proof' claims are made, they can be knocked down.
You have yet to actually provide a reasonable argument. I'll be waiting for the verse that says the earth is flat.
It was probably inside of a vision that Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
How convenient. It seems obvious that the original authors didn't intend it that way, because they said "[Satan] took Jesus up to a high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world." It implies a flat earth.
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I don't mind since I just gave the case whether you want to listen or not. The main use of the case is that when the 'Bible science proof' claims are made, they can be knocked down.
