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The hajj has been followed for over 1400 years each and every person who has been on hajj has lived the 3-11 days of hajj under the same rules and the same punishments. to go on hajj is to experience what the first Sahabi's experienced. It is an ancient ritual and to change any part of it means the person would not be facing the same conditions of all who came before.
For the curious here is a 45 minute view of the hajj. Looking through it. it appears to be the highlights of 3 days.
On hajj a person is equal to and facing equal challenges of all who ever did or will do hajj. It is not the obedience of any state or national laws and the rules of hajj only apply to hajj. The hajj is strenuous, but all are equal in facing the same challenges.
If a Jew wanted to try to replicate Moses's 40 years in the desert. do you think they could do so in an air conditioned apartment and following the laws of today?
A Muslim doing hajj is briefly accepting to live similar to the pilgrims from the sahabi. Facing the same conditions. laws and hardships.
For what purpose, to what end do people follow such religious rituals? I don't even participate in Christian rituals. I'm about as unorthodox as they come, while retaining my faith which is crucial to me. My ritual is to love, to show compassion and to try to do what is right - to be fair and honest in my dealings with my fellow humans. What more could God really want from us?
Many christians, not so long ago, punished for insults to Jesus, (or even to Mary, I think)
Christians never punished for insults to Calvin or Luther.
Muslims never punished for insults to muslim thinker, the equivalents of Calvin or Luther.
Ergo, christian and muslim reactions to insults are similar. Except the christian world got a jump start on accepting modernity. The only difference is timing. The attitudes are the same.
Actually, I'm not sure any of the reformers ever punished anyone for simply insulting Jesus. For that matter, I'm not sure the catholic church ever did either.
Oooh, I must make myself perfectly clear here. Yes, interfaith marriage has caused another holocaust. We are losing Jews faster to interfaith marriage than Hitler could have ever hoped. However, i DO NOT believe non-practicing Jews are in the same issue. Those jews simply need to be exposed to the beauty of the Torah, by an experienced outreach rabbi, and they'll be just fine. Or like Jazzymom says, they can just live "culturaly Jewish" lives, and as long as they marry Jewish and raise their kids Jewish, all is well.
If you want to see the statistics on how interfaith marriage is eliminating Jews from the earth faster than Hitler, just check out this link:
Flipflop I get and understand what you are saying. I see it happening in my Jewish community. I get it.
Jazzymom, did you check out the link? Quite scary. It basically states that within the next 100 years, the reform and conservative movements in Judaism will be nearly 100% eliminated because of interfaith marriage and low birth rates. Sadly, these Jews will go the way of the sadducees, the Hellinists, and other groups who have attempted to co-opt Judaism from the inside.
The good news, is there will always be a core group of Jews who hold by Torah values, so there will always be a group of Jews to "come back to." They say after the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles, each time only 10% of the Jews returned to the land of Israel. Each time, the other 90% were lost (save for the few thousand jews who remained Jewish in the diaspora). It's interesting that in our current 2,000 year old exile, we have maintained our faith, although our numbers have been holding "steady while slightly declining" for some time.
I pray three times a day for the end of this horrible exile, that we may return to the land of our origen and rebuild the Holy Temple. Although the messiah may tarry, i believe with perfect faith that he is coming, and i anxiously await that day.
In his view I suspect so. But you don't have to be an orthodox Jew to see the issues of interfaith marriages and assimilation. I am part of a community that is unaffiliated with any movement and it has many interfaith families. Because Judaism is passed through the mother and many of these families celebrate 2 religions in the home the children don't grow up with a strong sense of being Jewish.
Assimilation is a huge issue in Judaism. We don't proselytize so we don't grow like Christianity or Islam does. We are a tiny minority in the world so every Jewish person we lose to assimilation is not good.
As to the lapsed, non practicing Jews I know many Jews who live culturally Jewish lives and are raising their children Jewish. They may not be observant Jews but they understand the importance of passing their Jewishness on to their children.
Being Jewish is not just being religious it is also peoplehood and they go together.
Choosing to practice or not practice a religion is WORLDS away from being murdered because of your cultural or religious background. WORLDS away....
Actually, I'm not sure any of the reformers ever punished anyone for simply insulting Jesus. For that matter, I'm not sure the catholic church ever did either.
The Spanish Inquisition, at its inception, thus found itself possessed of jurisdiction and, in Aragon at least, where the institution had the tradition of centuries, there was no hesitation in exercising it, immediately after the reorganization. In the Saragossa auto of December 17, 1486, there appeared a Christian punished for blasphemy, his tongue being pierced with a stick, and a Jew with a bridle in his mouth, a mitre and a straw espuerta. In this field, as in so many others, inquisitorial zeal outran discretion; there was little attention paid to the distinction between heretical and non-heretical and, in the Instructions of 1500, inquisitors were told that they made arrests for trifling [329] matters, not directly heretical, as for words uttered in anger that were blasphemy and not heresy; in future, no one was to be arrested for such things and, if there was doubt, the inquisitor-general was to be consulted. (3) This warning was all the more needed, as the secular courts were not ready to abandon their jurisdiction, for a pragmática of Ferdinand and Isabella, in 1502, provides lashes, prison and other penalties for blasphemies so evidently heretical as descreo de Dios (I disbelieve in God). (4) The bishops likewise continued to assert control, for the Council of Seville, in 1512, under ex-Inquisitor-general Deza, imposed a fine of three gold florins and imprisonment at discretion on clerics, while for laymen, in addition to the legal penalties, the ecclesiastical judge was directed to prosecute for swearing, blasphemy, or insults to God, the Virgin and the saints. (5)
The death penalty for blasphemy was abolished in 1676.[25]
The last person to be jailed in the United States for blasphemy was Abner Kneeland in 1838 (a Massachusetts case: Commonwealth v. Kneeland).[5] The Kneeland case preceded the ratification (1868) of the 14th Amendment, which incorporated the Bill of Rights and made it apply to the states and not just to the federal government. From 1925, the Supreme Court applied the Bill of Rights to all states.[6]
The last U.S. conviction for blasphemy—at least that of any significance—was of atheist activist Charles Lee Smith. In 1928 he rented a storefront in Little Rock, Arkansas, and gave out free atheist literature there. The sign in the window read: "Evolution Is True. The Bible's a Lie. God's a Ghost." For this he was charged with violating the city ordinance against blasphemy. Because he was an atheist and therefore couldn't swear the court's religious oath to tell the truth, he wasn't permitted to testify in his own defense. The judge then dismissed the original charge, replacing it with one of distributing obscene, slanderous, or scurrilous literature. Smith was convicted, fined $25, and served most of a twenty-six-day jail sentence. His high-profile fast while behind bars drew national media attention. Upon his release, he immediately resumed his atheist activities, was again charged with blasphemy, and this time the charge held. In his trial he was again denied the right to testify and was sentenced to ninety days in jail and a fine of $100. Released on $1,000 bail, Smith appealed the verdict. The case then dragged on for several years until it was finally dismissed.[7]
So yes I believe the international community should ask questions.
I will agree the international community should question those cases as those involve state or national practices. These are laws that can affect casual visitors, or immigrants in the area. The international community does have a right and obligation for concern.
As for hajj this takes place within a religious sanctuary. All of Makkah and Medinah are considered to be a Mosque. This is not an area open to tourists or casual visitors. When one is there. it is only for the purpose of worship. It is not part of Saudi Arabia, it is within the KSA but is not part of the KSA. It is under Islamic law, in fact ancient Islamic Law and applies only to Muslims who are there to worship under the same conditions as the Sahabi. A person coming into the two cities does not enter as a Saudi, American, Canadian etc. They enter as a Muslim with no national affiliation. When in the Two Cities you live under the 1400 year old laws.
I will agree the international community should question those cases as those involve state or national practices. These are laws that can affect casual visitors, or immigrants in the area. The international community does have a right and obligation for concern.
As for hajj this takes place within a religious sanctuary. All of Makkah and Medinah are considered to be a Mosque. This is not an area open to tourists or casual visitors. When one is there. it is only for the purpose of worship. It is not part of Saudi Arabia, it is within the KSA but is not part of the KSA. It is under Islamic law, in fact ancient Islamic Law and applies only to Muslims who are there to worship under the same conditions as the Sahabi. A person coming into the two cities does not enter as a Saudi, American, Canadian etc. They enter as a Muslim with no national affiliation. When in the Two Cities you live under the 1400 year old laws.
Well you and I will just have to disagree..... The international community has every right to question this even if it took place during the hajj.....
And I hope that the pressure stays on the Saudi Government and that all eyes are on this.
I will agree the international community should question those cases as those involve state or national practices. These are laws that can affect casual visitors, or immigrants in the area. The international community does have a right and obligation for concern.
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When in the Two Cities you live under the 1400 year old laws.
That this does not bother you or seem the slightest bit ridiculous in this day and age boggles my mind, Wood. Do you check your intellect and knowledge at the door of these cities?
That this does not bother you or seem the slightest bit ridiculous in this day and age boggles my mind, Wood. Do you check your intellect and knowledge at the door of these cities?
Any one going into them has no intention of violating any of the rules. It is not like people go on Hajj to live there. Many Muslims such as myself will never get to go on Hajj and those who do will most likely go once in their life time. It is fairly easy to live by rules that you will come in contact with for only 3-11 days of your life.
I did go to Mecca once, illegally before I accepted Islam. I was not aware Non-Muslims were forbidden there and at the time My Arabic was too poor to read the signs. It was during hajj and the city was virtually empty.
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