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I've posted here before that quite a few people who are Christians (usually the evangelical ones who were "saved" in the Billy Graham altar-call fashion) became Christians NOT because they have read the whole bible, but because they were given a teaser passage. This is what happened to me in 1979.
I believe this is what creates such rabid, dogmatic positions by many Christians in the face of mountains of evidence that contradicts their positions. Some became "saved" because they converted after hearing a message about god's incredible love (John 3:16) or hearing about "prophecies" concerning the "last days." Some converted because of some biblical passage concerning hell or the beauties of heaven or an afterlife. Others converted because a message of hope or promised repair to their lives met them at some low point in their lives. So, in reality they made a life-changing decision WITHOUT even reading the entire bible.
This I liken to signing a contract based on word of mouth from a salesman who point out the good or bad things, creating an anxiety/fear in the signee to sign their name to the dotted line. The pages and pages of "fine print" are often summed up in "all this say is...so now all you have to do is sign your name here and here and here and here and there and there and here, over here and there." Somewhere down the road when fine print details become an issue, you're ignored, your "faith" is called into question or you're told you have to stick with it despite reality. If you decide to bail out of the contract, then you are threatened with hellfire, excommunication, and depending the religion, even death.
Which brings me to an experience in Miami a few years ago. As I was walking down Miami Ave, a guy tried to hand me a Christian tract. I took it and this of course gave him the idea I wanted to learn more (him not knowing I once did the same thing at a point in my life). He came closer to ask me if I "knew Jesus as my lord and savior." I told him, no, but asked him if it was okay if I took the tract home, read it over, get a better understanding and get back to him. His face dropped because I am not sure he expected such an answer so of course, he told me that "today is the day of salvation" to imply I needed to make an immediate decision on the spot OR visit some church to make that decision. To that I told him I still preferred to "read before I sign up." Of course he persisted until I told revealed to him what I once was. Looked like I threw him for a loop and he just starred at me as I walked away. Did the same thing here in NY a few years back and they don't know what to do with that.
So, why is it that [some] Christians cannot respect a person who would prefer to read the entire bible first BEFORE making a decision? Why the insistence to make a decision after reading a tract or a 10 minute conversation? Is it not fair to allow people to read up first before making such a "life-changing decision" to follow blindly by faith? What say ye?
good post. I think most people who are out there trying to win souls, really mean well. However, if they were to study the scripture they would see that the sinners prayer is nowhere to be found. As far as reading the bible first before you make a decision, i dont think that will help either. You can read it over and over and still not understand. It is God who does the converting not reading a bible nor repeating a prayer.
Even peter, after 3 years with the Master, was not converted. It is God who does the converting and nothing we do will change that. Paul did nothing but try to kill christian when he was hit with a right hook by God that knocked him out and blinded him. Like i said, conversion is of God.
Most people on the street handing out tract mean well but are just following someone else who has done it.
Well first, I want to say you handled the situation well. If I'm to understand you wasn't rude or angry with this man, that's awesome! And if we as atheists want the religious intolerance to end, we should lead by example. In any case of debate between the two sides of a religious coin, this practically forces the other party to be civil also (so as not to come off as immature and unstable).
Now to answer your questions, some believe that "God's word" cannot fully "speak to you" unless you give him your heart and soul. You could liken it to the story in the bible where Peter is walking on the water with Jesus Christ, but then begins to sink because of his doubt. Naturally, I agree with you; a person should ALWAYS do the appropriate research before committing themselves to anything. But I suppose part of the reason people don't is that they want the "joy" they see on the faces of those trying to convert them without the hassle of actually reading the entire Bible. Think of how many people are willing to sign that contract you used in your example, and double it because the Bible would take much longer to read than any contract ever drawn up.
Thank you for adding the word "some" to your post!
I think the "reason" some Christians behave that way, is because maybe you are right, they have a salesman mentality. They think they need to "close the deal" before letting you walk away.
I do think it's okay to let a person read the whole Bible, just as it is wise to read the whole contract before you sign on the dotted line.
I do however, in the case of the Bible, think it's also okay to choose to be saved before you have read the entire Bible. Unlike a contract that is legally binding if you sign without reading the whole thing. With religion (exept for some cults) if you change your mind, you can still walk away.
Sure, depending on your church community, it may not be easy, but it can still be done.
good post. I think most people who are out there trying to win souls, really mean well. However, if they were to study the scripture they would see that the sinners prayer is nowhere to be found. As far as reading the bible first before you make a decision, i dont think that will help either. You can read it over and over and still not understand. It is God who does the converting not reading a bible nor repeating a prayer.
Even peter, after 3 years with the Master, was not converted. It is God who does the converting and nothing we do will change that. Paul did nothing but try to kill christian when he was hit with a right hook by God that knocked him out and blinded him. Like i said, conversion is of God.
Most people on the street handing out tract mean well but are just following someone else who has done it.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that in at least some cases God uses The Bible to do the converting? What is the point of "inspiring" or creating The Bible if it was not meant for us to read?
good post. I think most people who are out there trying to win souls, really mean well. However, if they were to study the scripture they would see that the sinners prayer is nowhere to be found. As far as reading the bible first before you make a decision, i dont think that will help either. You can read it over and over and still not understand. It is God who does the converting not reading a bible nor repeating a prayer.
Even peter, after 3 years with the Master, was not converted. It is God who does the converting and nothing we do will change that. Paul did nothing but try to kill christian when he was hit with a right hook by God that knocked him out and blinded him. Like i said, conversion is of God.
Most people on the street handing out tract mean well but are just following someone else who has done it.
Oh, I'm never nasty with folks peddling their religion. I often politely turn them down. If they persist, I tell them I'm the LAST person they want to hold a conversation about religion with OR I just tell them I was once there and have no need for it anymore. My example up above was just to make a point.
Some peddlers are quite content to just give you a tract or Watchtower magazine WITHOUT needing to hold a conversation. I've caught on though. One day while walking in Harlem, this guy was passing out cards for a "cash for gold" store. I ignored him and he whispered, "man, I don't care if you buy anything, I just need to get rid of this s***!" In other words, to get paid, he was being watched and had to hand out all of the flyers. I get the impression folks like the JWs have to hand out ALL of their booklets to confirm their standing in their church.
I've posted here before that quite a few people who are Christians (usually the evangelical ones who were "saved" in the Billy Graham altar-call fashion) became Christians NOT because they have read the whole bible, but because they were given a teaser passage. This is what happened to me in 1979.
I believe this is what creates such rabid, dogmatic positions by many Christians in the face of mountains of evidence that contradicts their positions. Some became "saved" because they converted after hearing a message about god's incredible love (John 3:16) or hearing about "prophecies" concerning the "last days." Some converted because of some biblical passage concerning hell or the beauties of heaven or an afterlife. Others converted because a message of hope or promised repair to their lives met them at some low point in their lives. So, in reality they made a life-changing decision WITHOUT even reading the entire bible.
This I liken to signing a contract based on word of mouth from a salesman who point out the good or bad things, creating an anxiety/fear in the signee to sign their name to the dotted line. The pages and pages of "fine print" are often summed up in "all this say is...so now all you have to do is sign your name here and here and here and here and there and there and here, over here and there." Somewhere down the road when fine print details become an issue, you're ignored, your "faith" is called into question or you're told you have to stick with it despite reality. If you decide to bail out of the contract, then you are threatened with hellfire, excommunication, and depending the religion, even death.
Which brings me to an experience in Miami a few years ago. As I was walking down Miami Ave, a guy tried to hand me a Christian tract. I took it and this of course gave him the idea I wanted to learn more (him not knowing I once did the same thing at a point in my life). He came closer to ask me if I "knew Jesus as my lord and savior." I told him, no, but asked him if it was okay if I took the tract home, read it over, get a better understanding and get back to him. His face dropped because I am not sure he expected such an answer so of course, he told me that "today is the day of salvation" to imply I needed to make an immediate decision on the spot OR visit some church to make that decision. To that I told him I still preferred to "read before I sign up." Of course he persisted until I told revealed to him what I once was. Looked like I threw him for a loop and he just starred at me as I walked away. Did the same thing here in NY a few years back and they don't know what to do with that.
So, why is it that [some] Christians cannot respect a person who would prefer to read the entire bible first BEFORE making a decision? Why the insistence to make a decision after reading a tract or a 10 minute conversation? Is it not fair to allow people to read up first before making such a "life-changing decision" to follow blindly by faith? What say ye?
Did you read all that there is to know about every religion out there prior to rejecting Christianity? It's not unreasonable to tell a person enough to make an informed decision, but not cover all there is to know. You don't have to read the entire 66 books to understand the Gospel.
The fact that you abandoned the faith as you began to read more tells me that you apparently didn't have enough understanding. Some people do embrace it without thinking it through and do it for the wrong reason. They don't last, and fall away. We call those "false converts".
With religion (exept for some cults) if you change your mind, you can still walk away.
Depends on the religion, unless of course you view the entire Catholic Church as a cult... given they recently cynically changed canon law to remove the option of voluntary "defection" to leave the church.
Up until some time last year it was possible to "defect" and leave the catholic church. You would, as I did, receive a copy of your baptism cert stamped "defected" and you would be essentially removed from the church.
In the light of the abuses and rape of children and other crimes and moral failings of an organisation that is more worried about preventing people from using contraception than preventing its own staff raping children.... many people started to take this option... with a website called countmeout being set up to help speed up and optimise the process.
The numbers became so worrying that the catholic church changed canon law itself to close the loophole and prevent the option of further defection.
So no, unless you want to class the entire Catholic Church as a cult and not a religion, the comment that you can simply leave a church by walking away from it is not entirely true. There are religions that do anything they can to keep you on their books despite any attempts you make to formally leave. There is more information on this here if you care to read it.
Am I a bad atheist for admitting I haven't read the whole bible? I've tried a couple times but I wasn't raised in a religious household and just couldn't handle the repetitiveness and mountain of seemingly absurd passages of the OT (and this was before my solidification as an atheist).
It wasn't a deciding factor in my faith so I've never much felt the need to tackle it. If in debate with someone who claims the bible is complete truth, I've done a little research and found the passages I needed for a proper debate, but the overall message is too bogged down in unnecessary verbage for me to bother.
Depends on the religion, unless of course you view the entire Catholic Church as a cult... given they recently cynically changed canon law to remove the option of voluntary "defection" to leave the church.
Up until some time last year it was possible to "defect" and leave the catholic church. You would, as I did, receive a copy of your baptism cert stamped "defected" and you would be essentially removed from the church.
In the light of the abuses and rape of children and other crimes and moral failings of an organisation that is more worried about preventing people from using contraception than preventing its own staff raping children.... many people started to take this option... with a website called countmeout being set up to help speed up and optimise the process.
The numbers became so worrying that the catholic church changed canon law itself to close the loophole and prevent the option of further defection.
So no, unless you want to class the entire Catholic Church as a cult and not a religion, the comment that you can simply leave a church by walking away from it is not entirely true. There are religions that do anything they can to keep you on their books despite any attempts you make to formally leave. There is more information on this here if you care to read it.
Catholic apologists I've heard say that you automatically excommunicate yourself upon joining a new church. So, technically they have my name on the rolls...but I was kicked out years ago.
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