Christians, Tell Me Why I Should Oppose Gay Marriage (Catholic, beliefs, doctrine)

[Creator-Savior7]

Originally Posted by 11thHour

Well the bible also says a donkey talked, all species on the planet fit onto a boat, and one can be eaten by a whale and live inside its stomach for 3 days. So what the bible says and reality often have nothing in common. So if babies are born heterosexual, why could they not born homosexual?

Cause they are born as male and female, why would male and females both exist if it is meant to be homosexual. Simple proof in Life is that homosexuals cannot reproduce together, thus if that was the way then why would beings be created to only become extinct. And if you can fit a bunch of species in a zoo then why not a giant boat, it doesnt have to be every variation of cats and dogs, just cats and dogs which is way we are creating variations at this point

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by pgtitans

Okay, I can break it down for you.

Let's start with some of the things you have stated first.

Do you know what this means? I mean do you really know what this means. Separation of church and state is not meant in the context that you are interpreting it as. The point is religion plays a huge role in politics today. Why do you think people care about whether President Obama is a Muslim or a Christian if church and state is truly separate? The idea of the separation of church and state deals with not having one religion rule over our country, BUT that doesn't mean that religion cannot influence decisions. The bottom line is, your morality is directly tied to what you believe. No matter what you religion is, you determine what is right or wrong based on what you believe and that is how people vote and how leaders run this country.

Wrong. It's so that the church or church leaders specificly have no power over gov't.

It goes back to my first statement. It contradicts what I believe to be right for starters

Ok, then dont marry someone of the same sex, because for YOU, it's wrong. Syrely you realize that how you determine what is right and what os wrong will not be EVERYONeS right and wrong dont you? Why should your definition be forced on to someone else?

Second, it is much more than just marriage. Same sex couples want to be able to adopt, to have homosexuality taught in schools as well as so many other things other than just marriage.

This is much like the health argument, they are seperate issues entirely. The thread is about gay marriage, not adoption or education.

Now let's put like this, the same statements can be used to justify incest, polygamy

think incest is wrong, but I would never pass a law saying that you couldn't shack up with your sis if you wanted to.......

Just because I find it wrong doesn't mean that everyone does and my definition of right and wrong shouldn't impact what someone else wants to do in their life, particularly when it wont impact me.

As far as polygamy? Why is that wrong if everyone involved is consenting? The solution for you should be simple, only marry one women. Why is it that you think you have the right to dictate how many women I marry?

and even bestiality

Bestiality is its own case, because an animal cant consent to the sexual interaction, but if they could? Well hey, whatever floats your boat. But they cant so the point is moot.

I know some people don't like those things being brought up, but what would be your argument if the people who support incest used these same statements. How could you argue with them that incest is wrong? How do we know that incest is wrong?

Again, we dont know that it's wrong. It may be wrong for you, so dont do it. But again I ask, what gives you the right to decide that its wrong for me?

To say gay marriage is right because these are two consenting adults can lead to so others using the same argument so is that really and truly a valid argument?

Sure it is, because for "others" it may be right.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

Being gay is a choice

Yes, I'm sure people are "choosing" to be amongst the most hated minorities in the world...... And so what if they are? Even if it is a choice, how does denying them the right to a civil union effect you? How would it harm you or society?

kids arent born gay are they?

I think it's reasonable to believe they are, yes.

Wheres the "science behind that".

SHeeeeeeeeeeesh......... Scientific prooof gets thrown around on this forum all the time and theists reject it almost all the time. Theists say that there doesn't NEED to be scientific proof for God, but yet, NOW you want the science? NOW science is your freind? Oh the irony......

The choose too for some reason i can not comprehend

Have you ever even so much as considered the possibility that it isn't a choice?

Originally Posted by 11thHour

The problem with your argument is in the assumption that one chooses who they are attracted to. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I just am. Did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex, or does it just occur? You say kids aren't born gay. So are they born heterosexual?

You have a great point!!!!!! When I asked myself whether or not I thought gay people actually choosed to be gay, I asked myself the question " could I choose to be gay as a straight person?" My answer is no, so I have no other choice but to believe that it is not a choice.

Originally Posted by looking4answers12

Moderator cut: Orphaned

Moderator cut: Orphaned response.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

Cause they are born as male and female, why would male and females both exist if it is meant to be homosexual. Simple proof in Life is that homosexuals cannot reproduce together, thus if that was the way then why would beings be created to only become extinct. And if you can fit a bunch of species in a zoo then why not a giant boat, it doesnt have to be every variation of cats and dogs, just cats and dogs which is way we are creating variations at this point

Your argument goes to whether being gay is natural or not, thats fine, but how does it tie into whether gay people should be allowed to marry?

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

Yes they are born heterosexual, the bible even says natural is man and woman. Why do you think baby males always grab boobs lol jk.

If you read my OP, you should no that I said reasons OTHER than religion. If you want to believe that being gay is wrong because your religion says so, thats fine. What though, gives you the right to force your religious values on to everyone else?

[Creator-Savior7]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Your argument goes to whether being gay is natural or not, thats fine, but how does it tie into whether gay people should be allowed to marry?

Cause its not hows its supposed to be which directly related if it should be allowed or not. Do we let people kill even though its not right? But letting nasty stuff overtake our world is perfectly fine as long as its not violent or life threating to you right? How about 100 years down the line when aids gets stronger, mutates and becomes contagious like the cold. Theres no proof it will become indriectly contagious but you should defianntly stop it at the source considering its possiblilty.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

As far as all the health talk goes, on this thread that seems to have exploded in my absence, thats a sperate issue, as has been stated. Let me clue you in...... denying homosexuals the right to get married will NOT keep them from having sex, and to assume so is laughable. But again, it's a separate issue entirely. If you want to argue that anal sex is unhealthy, thats all well and good, but it doesn't adress the simple question of WHY should we as a society, deny them the right to get married?

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

Cause its not hows its supposed to be which directly related if it should be allowed or not. Do we let people kill even though its not right? But letting nasty stuff overtake our world is perfectly fine as long as its not violent or life threating to you right? How about 100 years down the line when aids gets stronger, mutates and becomes contagious like the cold. Theres no proof it will become indriectly contagious but you should defianntly stop it at the source considering its possiblilty.

Again. do you honestly think that denying gays the right to marriage will prevent them from having sex? Laughable,,,, just laughable.

[justtitans]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Wrong. It's so that the church or church leaders specificly have no power over gov't.

And why do you think that is? So they can't impose their beliefs on everyone. It prevents one religion from ruling.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Ok, then dont marry someone of the same sex, because for YOU, it's wrong. Syrely you realize that how you determine what is right and what os wrong will not be EVERYONeS right and wrong dont you? Why should your definition be forced on to someone else?

Sure it's different but that's my point. Everybody can't be right. Do you believe that without having something that we can point to, to know what is right or wrong, you can justify just about any behavior possible. There will always be people who will want laws to justify what they do. It's called relative truth.

Let me put it like this. Would you have a problem if someone came to your house stole your car, all your money and then left? Do you think that is right? By you logic of everyone having a right and wrong, that person can simply say that thought it was okay to steal your car and money. How do you know that it's wrong? How would you prove to them that what they did should be punished?

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

This is much like the health argument, they are seperate issues entirely. The thread is about gay marriage, not adoption or education.

Point being, gay marriage could possibly lead to those other issues.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

think incest is wrong, but I would never pass a law saying that you couldn't shack up with your sis if you wanted to.......

Just because I find it wrong doesn't mean that everyone does and my definition of right and wrong shouldn't impact what someone else wants to do in their life, particularly when it wont impact me.

As far as polygamy? Why is that wrong if everyone involved is consenting? The solution for you should be simple, only marry one women. Why is it that you think you have the right to dictate how many women I marry?

So if your father wanted to sleep with your sister (pretending you have one), then you would be okay with that?

As far as polygamy, my point is how do you know it's okay for you to marry more than one woman? How do you know that's okay? Just because it doesn't bother you? What if a man wanted to marry your wife (pretending you have one)? Would you be okay with another man being with your wife?

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Bestiality is its own case, because an animal cant consent to the sexual interaction, but if they could? Well hey, whatever floats your boat. But they cant so the point is moot.

You would be okay with people having sex with animals? I hope you don't have a dog...

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Again, we dont know that it's wrong. It may be wrong for you, so dont do it. But again I ask, what gives you the right to decide that its wrong for me?

So let me understand your logic, you want to know why gay marriage should be illegal without a biblical stance taken. I tell you why I think it's wrong, and you tell me why you think it's okay and so because you think it's okay, that's your justification for making it legal? I thought you wanted to get a perspective about why we think it should be illegal, but instead you are basically saying that your view is right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. So why should the laws be based on what you think is right or wrong?

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

Cause its not hows its supposed to be which directly related if it should be allowed or not. Do we let people kill even though its not right? But letting nasty stuff overtake our world is perfectly fine as long as its not violent or life threating to you right? How about 100 years down the line when aids gets stronger, mutates and becomes contagious like the cold. Theres no proof it will become indriectly contagious but you should defianntly stop it at the source considering its possiblilty.

One: your use of the English language suggests to me that you are not too well educated, which might explain your combative but decidedly Christian perspective. Stop it at it's source? Which is where, exactly? In your technical/medical opinion of course.

Two: You DO know that the AIDs virus initially came from it's being biologically hosted within the wild monkeys in Africa, right?

That it was the consumption of infected meat by native African villagers as the origins of it's new life within us humans. That it also had to (gasp!) Evolve first to become a human-borne pathogen. And that it first widely spread amongst heterosexuals, and still persists in that way through the highly chauvinistic and uncontrolled sexual behavior of married African men who openly engage with city whores when they are not at home.

(Many African men now work away from their impoverished villages, finding construction work, for example, in cities. There, they engage in very non-Christian behavior, but heck: let's ignore that for now, shall we? Let's just blame evil homosexuals, Yeah: that's a convenient deflection. Yeah: blame them!)

You knew all that, right?

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Let me clue you in...... denying homosexuals the right to get married will NOT keep them from having sex, and to assume so is laughable.

But again, it's a separate issue entirely. If you want to argue that anal sex is unhealthy, thats all well and good, but it doesn't adress the simple question of WHY should we as a society, deny them the right to get married?

Originally Posted by Creator-Savior7

I never said that, but i know gay people are not as strong minded thus denying them the right along with their passive behavior will eventually reverse the disease.

WHAT? Now just which high-handed (and child-molesting...) priest or pastor gave you that one as a bone to chomp on? Homosexuals are what again? Weak minded?? Compared to whom pray tell? And denying them the right to get married will accomplish what again?

Sorry: they are certainly not as weak-minded and flock-oriented as too many Christians are! Let me tell you, friend: the most weak-minded people I have EVER known are devout and intransigent Christians.

They can't even blow their noses without specific biblical permission, and they are categorically unable to think critically about technical/scientific subjects like Evolution, Genesis or Creation. And yet they do love that warm-cuddly feeling that only a strict adherence to the community rules of their bible, church or minister will allow.

Originally Posted by css9450

Stopping it at its source.... What does that mean?

Surely you realize that the one part of the world where AIDS is running rampant - central Africa - its spreading primarily among heterosexuals and from mother to child. NOT between gay men.

Correct, as I noted above. Damned HETEROSEXUALS! And women too! Both should be BANNED!

Originally Posted by Skotina

Blood of Jesus washes away our sins for free

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

That's a disturbing vision.

You are not kidding, AN! Yet another ultra-simplistic answer. "Believe in God, persecute the "homoz", enforce mandatory Creation "science" in our schools, and pray at every meal to Jee-Suss!

Alt-reality: How's about proper science-based childhood sex education, rational population management through contraception and education, mandating political and societal female equality (thats gonna be phun in Iran, huh?), and the abandonment of The Basics of Chauvinism, as is currently and fervently taught in our American Sunday Schools and the S. Baptist Convention (...and men shall have dominion over their subservient wives...<vomit>) to name but a few?

Southern Baptists and the Role of Women: Wives Must Submit to Husbands

In reality, this is entirely hopeless. Christianity and it's hugely outdated morés will end up getting us all killed. One way or another.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by pgtitans

And why do you think that is? So they can't impose their beliefs on everyone. It prevents one religion from ruling.

It prevents ANY religious organization from ruling.

Let me put it like this. Would you have a problem if someone came to your house stole your car, all your money and then left? Do you think that is right? By you logic of everyone having a right and wrong, that person can simply say that thought it was okay to steal your car and money. How do you know that it's wrong? How would you prove to them that what they did should be punished?

Thats not at all the same. If someone stole my car, they would be stealing MY car, and it would affect me in a negative way. Whereas with gay marriage, it will not affect anyone other than the ones who are getting married.

Point being, gay marriage could possibly lead to those other issues.

Why not just allow gay marriage and then fight those other issues when they arise? If you believe a child could be impacted negatively by being raised by two homosexuals, then you may have a case, but you have along road to walk to prove it.

By your logic we should ban the sale of gasoline, because someone could put it in their vehicle, and that vehicle would then be mobile, and the driver could casue an accident. See where that type of thinking leads?

So if your father wanted to sleep with your sister (pretending you have one), then you would be okay with that?

Once again, it is not about what I'm ok with. If it were ok between my hypothetical sister and father, sure, I would be disgusted and outraged, but it wouldn't negatively affect my life, so why should I have a say in whether they can or cannot do it?

As far as polygamy, my point is how do you know it's okay for you to marry more than one woman? How do you know that's okay? Just because it doesn't bother you?

I shall repeat myself yet again, it should have nothing to do with what I am ok with. I do not have a right to decide what others can do when the decision will not affect me.

What if a man wanted to marry your wife (pretending you have one)? Would you be okay with another man being with your wife?

No I would not because that would affect my life and my marriage. However, just because I would not want to share my wife does not mean that I have any right to tell my neighbor that he cant if thats what he wants to do.

You would be okay with people having sex with animals? I hope you don't have a dog...

Number 1, I never said that I would do such a thing and number two, yes. If the animal were a self aware being capable of consenting to sexual relations with humans, why should I forbid it?

So let me understand your logic, you want to know why gay marriage should be illegal without a biblical stance taken. I tell you why I think it's wrong, and you tell me why you think it's okay and so because you think it's okay, that's your justification for making it legal?

Well, I do think it's ok but that is besides the point. My justification for making it legal is the fact that if two guys or girls get married down at city-hall tomorrow, it wont affect me in the slightest, REGARDLESS of what I think of homosexuality.

That seems to be what you are missing, it's not about what YOU think is right or wrong, considering that it will have no impact on your life.

I thought you wanted to get a perspective about why we think it should be illegal

I do and I have yet to hear any valid reason it should be outlawed other than responses that are tantamount to saying " well I just dont think it's right, so nobody should be allowed to do it"

.

So why should the laws be based on what you think is right or wrong

They shouldn't. Thats the point you have been missing time and again.