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What's the claim here...that the apostles would not have died (if indeed they ever even existed in the first place) for a lie? Same claim could be made for Islamic suicide bombers couldn't it? I mean, they aren't going to blow their own heads off for something that is a lie are they? How about all the Japanese soldiers that willingly sacrificed their lives in WWII because they thought their Emperor was a god? Does the fact that those people died for him make it true...that he really was a god?
You need to understand that millions of people have died in the past and will do so in the future for beliefs that they firmly held to be true. Guess what....they were wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. Beliefs do not equal truth.
The 9/11 terrorists believed it to be true. Just like the apostles....that's the point. The argument is always made that they knew he wasn't God, and the knew they were lying....so it's stupid to think they'd die willingly for what they knew was a lie.
Not one said "Alright, alright, we were just kidding"?
In my opinion, since Jesus didn't follow Jewish tradition in His teachings according to what their idea of a messiah was, then the apostles were probably killed for the same reason. Jesus rebelled against the Jewish religion of the OT and was a rebel and felon when He was killed. But hey, don't tell Christians that.
The argument is always made that they knew he wasn't God, and the knew they were lying....so it's stupid to think they'd die willingly for what they knew was a lie.
Quite, it would be stupid to die for something that you knew wasn't true so what you need to do is first, show that they existed. Then, if you can do that, show that they died as martyrs ...rather than having no choice.
Quite, it would be stupid to die for something that you knew wasn't true so what you need to do is first, show that they existed. Then, if you can do that, show that they died as martyrs ...rather than having no choice.
We have a collection of 27 books that show they did. For that matter, we have a church that rapidly expanded from Jerusalem in a very short period of time. If you're foolish enough to ignore the documentation we have, I'm not sure there's really hope to convince you.
What...the Bible??? Hardly something that can be relied on for 'truth' is it?
We don't have any 'documentation'.
As I said....if a person is so closed-minded and willing to discount what we have, there's really no argument. It's pointless to even discuss it further.
As I said....if a person is so closed-minded and willing to discount what we have, there's really no argument. It's pointless to even discuss it further.
See that folks?? Just because I won't take his word for it....I'm 'close-minded'.
Let me repeat...WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE BIBLE OR OTHER RELIGIOUS WORKS. There is no objective, verifiable evidence.
By definition, any book that talks about it is labeled "religious". You willing to apply the same logic to the question of Julius Caesar ever existing? Because I can just say anything you find is just propoganda.
Or maybe George Washington? Christopher Columbus? This is what's fascinating about folks like you....there isn't a respected scholar alive that is willing to say Jesus and the apostles didn't exist. Your argument is just not reasonable.
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