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You guys are as much fun as toe fungus. At least there is a cream for that.
I have done some thinking....it's hard for me, you know...and have determined you two (navi and ikb) are not worth more investment of my time. You are not likable, entertaining or interesting. Mostly you just want to brawl, insult, mock and deride others while proclaiming your nonfaith makes you happier, wiser, more content and morally superior. Sorry, just don't see it, at all. Time for me to go. Bye-bye.
Christianity is an oppressive, patriarchal religion that has done much damage since its inception (religious wars, perversion of history, control of people) . . .
It exploits people, history, ideas, and true spirituality.
On the other hand, I view Christ as an "ascended master."
It's the religion that is the problem. To paraphrase Jung: "I'd rather be Christ than a Christian."
Christians are delusional in that they don't question the bible teachings against what we know about history (the age of the Earth, dinosaurs, etc.)
And the religion has a violent past (Crusades, witch burnings, et al).
I'd like to respond, but prior to doing so I will be upfront and tell you that I cannot prove it using traditional means such as presenting facts that you will accept as valid or logic that you will accept as irrefutable. However, there are plenty of facts that support this assertion; and I believe that sound logic supports the assertion as well (although I concede that the facts I have may not prove what I am saying, just support what I am saying). Now, instead of making a scientific case through painstakingly going through the facts and arguments that support my assertion (which I'd be happy to do in another post if you like, btw), let me instead try to explain how I know what I know-
namely, that there is a God in heaven and that He is our creator.
I know because I know Him. Not the same way that you know your postman, or your mother, or your boss, or whatever. Consider: there are many ways to know things other than to physically see them. I'm not talking about deducing either, or extrapolating, or making assumptions of any kind, because none of that is necessary. The faith comes first, the proof comes after. Proof that is far more compelling than sight, by the way. But not proof that is easy to explain without actually living it. Nevertheless, I KNOW that my Father in heaven is no liar, is no phoney, is no charlatan, because I've lived it. And the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
I realize that this post is very general. I'm not trying to be intentionally ambivilent or abstract, I'm just trying to be honest- with the hope that perhaps someone sees this and I'm able at some point to 'win a soul' (saying in my circles). I'm more than happy to debate the specifics with you, or anyone, in future posts. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me.
I'd like to respond, but prior to doing so I will be upfront and tell you that I cannot prove it using traditional means such as presenting facts that you will accept as valid or logic that you will accept as irrefutable. However, there are plenty of facts that support this assertion; and I believe that sound logic supports the assertion as well (although I concede that the facts I have may not prove what I am saying, just support what I am saying). Now, instead of making a scientific case through painstakingly going through the facts and arguments that support my assertion (which I'd be happy to do in another post if you like, btw), let me instead try to explain how I know what I know-
namely, that there is a God in heaven and that He is our creator.
I know because I know Him. Not the same way that you know your postman, or your mother, or your boss, or whatever. Consider: there are many ways to know things other than to physically see them. I'm not talking about deducing either, or extrapolating, or making assumptions of any kind, because none of that is necessary. The faith comes first, the proof comes after. Proof that is far more compelling than sight, by the way. But not proof that is easy to explain without actually living it. Nevertheless, I KNOW that my Father in heaven is no liar, is no phoney, is no charlatan, because I've lived it. And the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
know/nō/
Verb:
Be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
Have knowledge or information concerning.
Then you don't KNOW your god exists you just BELIEVE it. That is a very different thing.
Unless you are claiming you have observed god?
Quote:
I realize that this post is very general. I'm not trying to be intentionally ambivilent or abstract, I'm just trying to be honest- with the hope that perhaps someone sees this and I'm able at some point to 'win a soul' (saying in my circles). I'm more than happy to debate the specifics with you, or anyone, in future posts. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me.
dys
You can believe anything you like, it requires nothing more or less than faith but making a statement that you KNOW the bible is true, and that you KNOW god exists is just not true.
I was just about to go off to bed, to sleep; perchance to dream, and I tuned in on this insulting thread.
[BTW, mods; great re-org of this forum. Now at least we can have the Muslims off in their own corner.!]
As for the high priest of intellect here, [that'd be our very own non-stop master of the ad hominem and off-topic straw argument tigers84? I'm talkin' 'bout'cha sonny boy. Your ears burning?
I really did need a good laugh, esp with your lame insults and name-calling. Here: I'm gonna give it a try too. You don't mind, do you?
OK: Here's some facts back at you, mon-chat! To ponder as you sleep tonight, tigers m'boy!:
_____________________________________________
1) In fact, yep, we scientists, skeptical thinkers and educated rationalistas are, quite obviously, far superior to you in literally every way where it counts. (i.e.: in the head...) Obviously. You prove it every time you open your pie-hole and make endless unprovable but loud & unintelligent sounds.
2) It's now particularly easy to disprove some antiquated, fantasy wooden-gawd icon, a white-haired old dude acknowledged with all manner of totally impossible actions, from making a completed universe [now that's a good one, huh guys? It's so obviously not finished...] out of nothing (but but but.. WTF? You guys all tell us that can't happen!).
And to creating all known life, absent any Evolution (which is now so easily proven, it's laughable!) BTw, it's also so sad you're not keeping up at all, but instead you prefer to profer up criticisms of science from the late '50s... .
3) Yup: your gawd did it ALL in one fell swoopy-doopy-doo hand-wave, with time oddly adjusted of late, given the logical arguments that piled up against it being done in 6 days, to give your god enough of it to do the job... ( and here I thought he was omnipotent...), to fludding the earth while preserving all refugia on a totally ecologically ruined planet. I assume those life forms include unicorns and teddy bears? Everything else would, natch, be killed off. But not in your über-logical minds ()
4) Your so-called anti-science experts, a tribe of wild-headed loonies you trot out as you feel necessary to counter unassailable logic and fact...
...like Hovind, Comfort, the utterly asinine, hideous and hate-filled Phelps family (now now, you can't be selective here. They'z either Christianz or they'z not!!), and so on and so on and so on. All with self-granted degrees to fool the innocent and blind the thoughtful: what a distinguished group to counter the facts with. Yup: very compelling minds indeed.
5) The bible is but a multi-revision text of completely Selective Beliefs of Convenience, trotted out and re-interpreted in so many ways I think it can be easily used to prove room-temp fusion and that rocks can breed...
6) Your endless thick-headed arrogance is not at all like ours: at least we have some valid stuff to build on, and can prove it with multiple published papers from unimpeachable sources, while you guys just keep, what is it they tell you not to do? P###$$#$$ into the wind? And quote biblical phrases ad infinitum, but also ad absurdum...
7) Your categorical refusal to answer any straightforward questions about your beliefs as well as what's specifically wrong with ours is a pathology you really ought to have looked at before it really does finish off your frayed neuronal connections! I'm serious: I'm VERY concerned for you man! As my "brother" and all...
8) Your pathological illiteracy about basic biochemistry, geology, astronomy, climatology, "logicology" and so on, and what "life" per se really is, is particularly egregious. Your vacuous and pointless denials are exactly that; they only serve to demo to any reader here, even the Christian ones, that you wouldn't even be allowed into a Romper Room Grade 6 intro to fun Chemistry for kidz!
You remember: when you grew sugar crystals on a string overnight? That one must have really baffled you! "Magic Crystals out of nothing. Well, I'll be baffled and awe-struck! It must be Gawd! PTL!"
9) Yeah, your beliefs and denials surely must give you a nice warm feeling, but afterwards, you still smell pretty odd... and in the end, you'll die like the rest of us: dust to dust, carbon 14 to carbon 12. (look it up), and no Grande Golden Ship to rescue you. Sad, huh? Well... you'll just have to get used to it, eh? Truly. Must be a big disappointment! I'm sorry!
_______________________________
There. You insult us & me, I insult you back. Big Diff is, I know what I'm talking about, being an ex-Christian ("No! You never were, else you'd never have left the sheeple fold!" ) And you obviously don't know what you're talking about, since you have no answers that stand up to even a preliminary logical review.
(Oh sure: go ahead now: report me, you big chicken! That only means you lost the argument and know it!)
Well... sadly, I've exhausted my limited repertoire and lexicon. So... Have a nice sleep, smarty pants.
Oh and ikb7014; congrats on putting the toads to bed. Job well done. I'd not bother with them any more, since it's pretty hard to turn lead into, well, anything else!
Christianity is an oppressive, patriarchal religion that has done much damage since its inception (religious wars, perversion of history, control of people) . . .
It exploits people, history, ideas, and true spirituality.
On the other hand, I view Christ as an "ascended master."
It's the religion that is the problem. To paraphrase Jung: "I'd rather be Christ than a Christian."
Christians are delusional in that they don't question the bible teachings against what we know about history (the age of the Earth, dinosaurs, etc.)
And the religion has a violent past (Crusades, witch burnings, et al).
One of the most prevalent propoganda campaigns out there is to try to conflate 'faith' and 'religion'. They are not remotely the same thing. Religion can be corrupted by corrupted men, faith in Jesus Christ is something different entirely. If you'll notice, those that confess their faith in Jesus Christ are often falsely accused of pushing their 'religion' even if they never mention religion or anything related to religion.
As far as your view on Jesus Christ, I have a logical argument I'd like to present to you:
If you accept the premise that Jesus Christ was in fact a real person that was born around 2000 years ago, and that he claimed to be the living Son of God, there are only a few possibilities that are possible under that scenario, none of them that He was an ascended master.
1. He was who He said he was, the true Son of the living God in heaven. (this is what I believe)
2. He was not the true Son of God as he claimed to be. In which case, he was either:
a. a liar,
b. or a madman.
By the way, 'ascended masters' is a Satanic term and Jung was a practicing member of the occult.
Food for thought.
Be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.
Have knowledge or information concerning.
Then you don't KNOW your god exists you just BELIEVE it. That is a very different thing.
Unless you are claiming you have observed god?
Yes, sir, this is exactly what I am saying. I am aware of God through observation, inquiry, and information. Not traditional obervation, inquiry, or infomation, however. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. (this may seem silly and I realize it's probably not an argument that will have a lot of utility with you, but I will try anyway) I have had the experience many times of saying a prayer in the form of a question, and then the next time I open my bible, the answer to my prayer is right in front of me within a few sentences. Being a skeptical person (yes, believe it or not I'm a born skeptic), at first my mind would not 'accept' the answer as true until I verified the answer through life experience. These answers are ALWAYS correct. This is not something that has happened once or twice, it's something that I have been able to verify as valid many times over- and it's AlWAYS valid as God is infallible. This is just one example of an experience that absolutely confirms that my belief is factually based.
Quote:
You can believe anything you like, it requires nothing more or less than faith but making a statement that you KNOW the bible is true, and that you KNOW god exists is just not true
No, Sir, you are wrong. It is literally the ONLY thing that I know is the truth in this world. Jesus Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
So, let's prove or disprove cupids existence for fun. There is a lot of love around proving to me there must be little doubt that he's real, according to your measure. Do you argue this? If you do then you are a hypocrite. If you don't then your God looses credibility. What to do, what to do...............
You can't know anything from the feelings you get. You can only feel what you think it's correct. This is what the op is surely talking about. It feels as if I'm ditching your dreams and feelings because there is no evidence to go on. But, it's not personal, it's just a feeling that I don't feel. Just like you don't feel cupid is responsible for your marriage or relationship. I might be hurt if you didn't because it raises doubt in my own feelings but that doesn't mean anything really. They are just feelings. Nothing tangible.
.
With all due respect, I don't think your comparison is relevant- it's apples to oranges. First of all, I've had no personal experience with Cupid. I don't have a book that Cupid wrote to relay his/her thoughts to me. I don't have any reason to suspect that Cupid, if even real, is a source or origin of love. Most importantly, you are misclassifying a believer's relationship with God as solely based on 'feelings'. That is just not accurate.
As far as the feeling that you don't feel, le me say this: "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist." -Usual Suspect
Yes, sir, this is exactly what I am saying. I am aware of God through observation, inquiry, and information. Not traditional obervation, inquiry, or infomation, however. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. (this may seem silly and I realize it's probably not an argument that will have a lot of utility with you, but I will try anyway) I have had the experience many times of saying a prayer in the form of a question, and then the next time I open my bible, the answer to my prayer is right in front of me within a few sentences. Being a skeptical person (yes, believe it or not I'm a born skeptic), at first my mind would not 'accept' the answer as true until I verified the answer through life experience. These answers are ALWAYS correct. This is not something that has happened once or twice, it's something that I have been able to verify as valid many times over- and it's AlWAYS valid as God is infallible. This is just one example of an experience that absolutely confirms that my belief is factually based.
No, Sir, you are wrong. It is literally the ONLY thing that I know is the truth in this world. Jesus Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to:
Tell the difference between what is real and not real
Strongly held beliefs that are not real (delusions)
Hearing or seeing things that are not there (hallucinations)
Bizarre behaviors
Anger or arguing
False beliefs that others are trying to harm you or your loved ones
(like for instance, Satan)
Thoughts that "jump" between different topics (“loose associations”)
Now I'm not saying you are not Schizophrenic, I put this to make a point, our minds can believe a lot of things. One of the reasons we rely on proof is because our minds are not reliable tools at times.
Take a hypochondriac for example. They can really feel pain, dizziness, itching, stomach pain, numbness, etc. But, it's all due to anxiety. It feels as if there is a real cause, they feel as if it's real but it is not. Our minds can make us feel assured that we know something without a doubt, but there is in reality doubt and in reality no medical test can find an illness. This is why science is helpful because our minds can and will do a lot of things we think or believe to be real. Feelings are real, but are not a proven reality. If that makes sense.
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to:
Tell the difference between what is real and not real
Strongly held beliefs that are not real (delusions)
Hearing or seeing things that are not there (hallucinations)
Bizarre behaviors
Anger or arguing
False beliefs that others are trying to harm you or your loved ones
(like for instance, Satan)
Thoughts that "jump" between different topics (“loose associations”)
Now I'm not saying you are not Schizophrenic, I put this to make a point, our minds can believe a lot of things. One of the reasons we rely on proof is because our minds are not reliable tools at times.
Take a hypochondriac for example. They can really feel pain, dizziness, itching, stomach pain, numbness, etc. But, it's all due to anxiety. It feels as if there is a real cause, they feel as if it's real but it is not. Our minds can make us feel assured that we know something without a doubt, but there is in reality doubt and in reality no medical test can find an illness. This is why science is helpful because our minds can and will do a lot of things we think or believe to be real. Feelings are real, but are not a proven reality. If that makes sense.
C'mon, now. Schizo and a hypochrondriac example based on a belief in Jesus Christ and the holy bible (which is probably the single most read book in the history of the world) as truth through practical experience... talk about loose associations, and bizarre behaviours.
dys
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A short beside primer to sleep on!
. 
and here I thought he was omnipotent...), to fludding the earth while preserving all refugia on a totally ecologically ruined planet. I assume those life forms include unicorns and teddy bears? Everything else would, natch, be killed off. But not in your über-logical minds (
)
