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Having read as much as I could, forgive me if this is a repeat: God instilled one thing in man-free will. We decide what wars to wage, we decide what chemicals to add to our environment, we decide to play with our genetic make-up, we decide if we should believe in Him or not.
Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for us. We repay him by following his teachings. Prayer does work! But we are not the ones to decide; He does it all for His reasons, not ours. The OP comes out of Human rhetoric, not Divine.
I agree 100% bryfry, but it is very difficult to talk to an athiest about freewill and faith..In a friendly discussion, I try to get my point across to my athiest friends without using the faith, or freewill word, and as few bible verses as possible..They cannot grasp the reasoning nor concept of it..and it just leads to frustration on both sides..But then, I am not trying to "convert" any of them..
There's a difference between voluntarily choosing to talk about the existence of God and having someone come to my door and proselytize at me. My reasons for discussing God's existence in a public forum like this are primarily to show how atheists reach the conclusions they do so that theists can understand us better and not be discriminatory. Also, there are side issues such as the tendency of some theists to undermine democracy or science, on which I'd hope we could find common ground. I'd do the same with believers in Santa if similar threats came from them.
Doesn't answer the question of "WHY discuss it if you are convinced?" Is it to sway others? Or do you really think theists wish to "understand" atheists? Surely not! I mean, do atheists want to "understand" theists? Delightful concept! Absurd, but delightful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirbryn
Yes you're really an atheist if you think about the concept of God but believe God doesn't exist. You could be a virgin and still think about sex, or a vegetarian and think about meat if you wanted to as well.
If you ARE an atheist, why on earth (or elsewhere) would you think of God existing? I'm NOT an atheist & I NEVER think of God NOT existing! Likewise, who can possibly say virgins think of sex & or vegetarians think of meat? Have you interviewed many of them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirbryn
Actually that was Edmund Burke ([URL="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke"]Edmund Burke - Wikiquote[/URL])
No, actually it is attributed to Albert Einstein by the vast majority of "quotes" websites, however I suppose it is remotely possible that Burke may have come up with it since he was alive almost two centuries before Einstein. I don't think "Wiki" anything is a reliable source of much since it's pieced together by amateur writers. To each his/her own. It doesn't matter a whit to me who said it, or what you choose to believe.
And isn't that the actual point? Let everyone believe whatever they choose. Why be distracted by trying to "prove" things? Set your belief system, live by it, & let others do the same.
After all, if each of us was busy taking care of our OWN business, & of becoming all we each can become, what time would be left for the frivolity of condemning others for not being just like us?
I was merely researching something & stumbled across this forum. The very thing I was researching is WHY humans are so driven to sway others to their beliefs. Theism vs atheism, democrat vs republican, man vs woman, Islam vs everyone, etc, ad nauseum. Such a tendency has brought all humanity to the brink of extinction time & time again. One might think we'd learn from past mistakes. Au contraire! We are driven to "enlighten", to "save" others from their erroneous beliefs, to bring our own versions of order to whatever chaos we perceive. WHY? It's an exercise in futility!
What would happen, & dare we imagine, if we all just left each other alone to believe whatever we each choose to believe?
I want to understand SELF, for it is SELF who makes all my decisions.
It would take a lifetime to really understand JUST ME.
Can I afford the wasted time to "try to understand" others?
Wouldn't it be a better choice just to work on ME?
After 63 years of observation, I conclude that since I will probably leave this realm WITHOUT understanding myself, I have NO right nor business trying to understand others. I'll either accept some people into my life, or I won't. I'll formulate my own beliefs based solely on what I find works best for me, on what I am willing to accept. Can anyone sway my deep-rooted, long-held beliefs? Hardly! Do I assume I can sway anyone? Absolutely not! What do I say of those who try?
"Poor fools."
Is this "un-Christian"? Not if Revelation 22:11 is to be taken as the word of God:
" ' 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.' "
Good enough for me!
Adieu! Adieu! I was only passing through.
That's it in a nutshell.
There was an apologetic excuse posted some time ago about amputees that basically said that it's not something to be cured, it's a loss. Apparently under the god plan, loss is not covered much like how Katrina victims whose houses are ruined due to water damage aren't covered because Katrina wasn't a flood, it was a hurricane (read your fine print). The god plan does not cover lost limbs or protection from iron chariots. But you have to cook up excuses if you're a believer because "it's the only way [you] can accept certain things".
Tsk, tsk, tsk!
Cook up excuses?
As in the excuses we ALL use to justify our beliefs? As YOU do, PhillyChief?
I don't know nor care but, just for the record, do atheists believe in HYPOCRISY?
I'll ask the next questions completely without regard for answers as I won't be reading or posting here again. I just can't afford the time.
Atheist or theist, have you ever experienced what some refer to as a "near-death experience"? If so, were you afraid of death, or did you hope you weren't dying? WHY? For an atheist there is nothing on the other side, so why fear? For theists, Heaven surely looms as a wonderful & better place to be, the "finish line", so to speak, so, again, why fear or fight it?
Atheist or theist, have you ever passed by a place, or a person, & had a "cold chill" run down your spine, or had a strong feeling of foreboding or danger? Is there indeed both "evil" & "good" then? The Bible definitely records that demons were quite afraid of Jesus, so "good" can be feared as well, yes? And "evil"?
Atheist or theist, explain if you care to, why even the most recently "discovered" & so-called "primitive" cultures had "gods" & "demons". And why do very young children have that innate fear of punishment to the point that they will lie to avoid it? Is it just a pain factor? Not when they do it BEFORE they've ever received punishment.
Humans have always sought a mysterious "something" to explain existence in general. We wonder & we theorize, & we search. WHY?
Those who do NOT believe in any "higher power" comprise, as of data from late 1990s (Google it yourselves) , less that 4% of the world's population. The rest have some form of belief in a higher power/powers,God, gods, or goddesses. WHY? In America, roughly 3% of the population are "avowed" atheists. 85% CLAIM to be Christian! And some say America is a godless nation! Apparently not! But why do so many believe in God? It isn't just the ignorant or illiterate, the lower class of humans who claim to believe in some greater force/higher power, or whatever. By sheer number it appears that far more "intellectuals" & highly educated people believe in God than those who don't.
In America, I believe we operate under a "majority rules" ideal. But yet, in recent times, it has become "politically incorrect" to allow the MAJORITY to do what the MAJORITY wishes...believe in God. In that same time it has become politically CORRECT to allow a very small number of atheists to try to dictate policy to local, state, & federal governments concerning how to handle the "God crowd"...i.e., take those "religious icons" (the 10 Commandments, "In God we trust", "one nation under God", etc) OUT of society! LESS THAN 3% are bullying the 85% of American citizens who CLAIM to be Christian! HOW is that possible? To me, it signifies that the majority of that 85% are LYING! If they actually WERE Christian, why would they stand for such a thing? They wouldn't!
So, there we have it.
Like I quoted before from Rev.22:11
" ' He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.' "
Not one human on earth can change the mind of another UNLESS that mind is (a) very weak, or (b) willing to change!
Well my relative with down's syndrome wouldn't even know who or what God was, let alone pray and she has more than enough to get through in a day than wonder why he/she doesn't "cure" her.
The miracle here about the missing limbs has already been answered, perhaps? Many here whom have posted have missing limbs or friends, relatives that do. Not a one of them shows any anger or disbelief in God; yet they are the ones with the missing limb that God does not replace?
As for those born with mental disabilities..In the bible god speaks of those who go through life with "child like" ways. He states that those who care for these individuals and have compassion for them, will reap greater rewards in heaven. People born with disabilities are born that way for a reason in my opinion. I feel they are closer to God then many of us realize. They are innocent and many have a child-like outlook on life, for all of their lives. Perhaps they were put here, to see how you and I might treat them and be judged accordingly? I'm not sure, but I do know they do have a special place with God.
Perhaps many of you should stop trying humanize the existence of God. God does not need to be tested by the likes of you and I.
I cared for an individual with severe mental retardation for over 10 years. This person was all but completely incapacitated. this person suffered from life threatening seizure disorder. About 2 days before this person passed on, I noticed an unusual pattern. This person would turn his head towards the ceiling and window with a huge smile and try and speak, unlike he had ever done before. It was amazing. It gave me a feeling seeing this I cannot really explain, but I knew something supernatural was going on. I could sense it and feel it, but I wondered for two days what he might be seeing or thinking. On the third day, he passed from a serious seizure. It was not expected. My first thought that came to me very quickly, was that he was either seeing God, Angels, or someone was telling him he was going home soon. It was a very real and moving experience. There is no doubt this person was seeing and feeling something with him those final few days.
Ask any hospice nurse too. They will tell you many very strange happenings that take place in one's final days before death. Things we cannot explain.
Last edited by travelmate38; 04-20-2008 at 03:22 AM..
The miracle here about the missing limbs has already been answered, perhaps? Many here whom have posted have missing limbs or friends, relatives that do. Not a one of them shows any anger or disbelief in God; yet they are the ones with the missing limb that God does not replace?
As for those born with mental disabilities..In the bible god speaks of those who go through life with "child like" ways. He states that those who care for these individuals and have compassion for them, will reap greater rewards in heaven. People born with disabilities are born that way for a reason in my opinion. I feel they are closer to God then many of us realize. They are innocent and many have a child-like outlook on life, for all of their lives. Perhaps they were put here, to see how you and I might treat them and be judged accordingly? I'm not sure, but I do know they do have a special place with God.
Perhaps many of you should stop trying humanize the existence of God. God does not need to be tested by the likes of you and I.
I cared for an individual with severe mental retardation for over 10 years. This person was all but completely incapacitated. this person suffered from life threatening seizure disorder. About 2 days before this person passed on, I noticed an unusual pattern. This person would turn his head towards the ceiling and window with a huge smile and try and speak, unlike he had ever done before. It was amazing. It gave me a feeling seeing this I cannot really explain, but I knew something supernatural was going on. I could sense it and feel it, but I wondered for two days what he might be seeing or thinking. On the third day, he passed from a serious seizure. It was not expected. My first thought that came to me very quickly, was that he was either seeing God, Angels, or someone was telling him he was going home soon. It was a very real and moving experience. There is no doubt this person was seeing and feeling something with him those final few days.
Ask any hospice nurse too. They will tell you many very strange happenings that take place in one's final days before death. Things we cannot explain.
I worked as a hospital chaplain and sat with more then a thousand dead and dying patients, who all had wild experiences toward the end.
All of which CAN be explained through natural processes, we call it psychology. Sorry, but even after sitting with so many people at deaths door, I still see no evidence for god at all.
But much for the psychological impacts religion plays in the kinds of experiences they have in the last moments.
[quote=ahteist2;3517363]I worked as a hospital chaplain and sat with more then a thousand dead and dying patients, who all had wild experiences toward the end.
Tsk, tsk, tsk!
Cook up excuses?
As in the excuses we ALL use to justify our beliefs? As YOU do, PhillyChief?
I don't know nor care but, just for the record, do atheists believe in HYPOCRISY?
I'll ask the next questions completely without regard for answers as I won't be reading or posting here again. I just can't afford the time.
Atheist or theist, have you ever experienced what some refer to as a "near-death experience"? If so, were you afraid of death, or did you hope you weren't dying? WHY? For an atheist there is nothing on the other side, so why fear? For theists, Heaven surely looms as a wonderful & better place to be, the "finish line", so to speak, so, again, why fear or fight it?
Atheist or theist, have you ever passed by a place, or a person, & had a "cold chill" run down your spine, or had a strong feeling of foreboding or danger? Is there indeed both "evil" & "good" then? The Bible definitely records that demons were quite afraid of Jesus, so "good" can be feared as well, yes? And "evil"?
Atheist or theist, explain if you care to, why even the most recently "discovered" & so-called "primitive" cultures had "gods" & "demons". And why do very young children have that innate fear of punishment to the point that they will lie to avoid it? Is it just a pain factor? Not when they do it BEFORE they've ever received punishment.
Humans have always sought a mysterious "something" to explain existence in general. We wonder & we theorize, & we search. WHY?
Those who do NOT believe in any "higher power" comprise, as of data from late 1990s (Google it yourselves) , less that 4% of the world's population. The rest have some form of belief in a higher power/powers,God, gods, or goddesses. WHY? In America, roughly 3% of the population are "avowed" atheists. 85% CLAIM to be Christian! And some say America is a godless nation! Apparently not! But why do so many believe in God? It isn't just the ignorant or illiterate, the lower class of humans who claim to believe in some greater force/higher power, or whatever. By sheer number it appears that far more "intellectuals" & highly educated people believe in God than those who don't.
In America, I believe we operate under a "majority rules" ideal. But yet, in recent times, it has become "politically incorrect" to allow the MAJORITY to do what the MAJORITY wishes...believe in God. In that same time it has become politically CORRECT to allow a very small number of atheists to try to dictate policy to local, state, & federal governments concerning how to handle the "God crowd"...i.e., take those "religious icons" (the 10 Commandments, "In God we trust", "one nation under God", etc) OUT of society! LESS THAN 3% are bullying the 85% of American citizens who CLAIM to be Christian! HOW is that possible? To me, it signifies that the majority of that 85% are LYING! If they actually WERE Christian, why would they stand for such a thing? They wouldn't!
So, there we have it.
Like I quoted before from Rev.22:11
" ' He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.' "
Not one human on earth can change the mind of another UNLESS that mind is (a) very weak, or (b) willing to change!
So what does all of this have to do with amputees? Giving an argument about the number of people who believe in God does what? Is that supposed to be evidence for existence? By this standard, because the majority, if not all, of the ancient Greeks believed in Zeus then we must hereby constitute that as evidence for Zeus' existence? What about Allah? 1/6th of the world's population believes in Allah... Does that constitute his existence? How about Hinduism, in which another 1/6th of the world's population believes in the multiplex of deities that religion has brought forth?? Why should arguments from "number of believers" dictate what is real and what is not?
Similarly, I find the rest of your comments to be dimunitively written with wreckless abandon and made on ill-founded assertions. Of course, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Continue on... I'm just trying to figure out, in the end, why you felt the need to address this issue on a thread about amputees? Was there a specific reason you decided to hijack this thread and begin to preach to us instead of ignoring the OP which asks why amputees are never touched by the hand of God... ANY GOD?!
Everybody in this world is born with a handicap and that handicap is sin. We are born into sin,but we have a Saviour in Jesus Christ who cleanses our sin if we believe and put our trust in Him.
The miracle is in His Son Jesus Christ who came to Earth in the form of a man as our Saviour and died on the cross for our sins.
Like I mentioned before ,I am an amputee and I would rather lose my remaining leg,than to to not have a personal relationship with my Lord and Saviour,that is how much He means to me.
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Were you a Chaplain before you were an athiest?
