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Cupper,
I can't stand religions...their beliefs are chains, in my opinion. Don't get me started.
The Bible? Don't get me started. ( Tho, like in anything, there is wisdom and guidance to
be found in it in places..as in any novel if you have the clarity to find any.)
In order to understand the Mind and Nature of God...ie,,just who and what IS
this Creator or Superior Being or Star Trekkian Spirit of enormous proprotions unimaginable...
It has to be experienced up close and personal....directly and intimately. Period.
I understand why everything happens as it does. It has been explained by many a mystic, poet, master,
or yogi.
But, it will never make true sense to anyone in the deepest part of us until we
"become" or are in the very Mind of this Creator...even for a glorious instant.
So, that is where your real answer lies...inside yourself.
Sorry, you'll have to do the work and make the effort to find the answer inside yourself,
where God is.
How? Well, there are ways and clues all over..be still, empty your cup, be open,
ask, wait, meditate.
But, that is only if you really want to know. Otherwise, continue on your path trying to
persuade others they are not seeing what you see.
God is both evil and good and neither and all of it.
He is the sound of one hand clapping.
He is the agony and the ecstacy.
Go inside and you will see what all that means...it could take years...hours
of sitting in silence...waiting for that one moment of Divine Insight...then, I will dare you to explain what you "got" to US!
Maybe you're not going to think it's fair of me to answer your question with a question (with two questions, actually), but your answers will help me formulate my answer to you.
1. What should God have done to keep the Holocaust from happening? Should He just have killed Hitler prior to his rise to power? Do you think that would have done it? Or should He just have somehow made sure other countries intervened long before they did?
2. How much "evil" should God permit? What should He let people get away with and what kinds of things should He make sure don't happen (presumably by killing off the "bad guys" before they do their damage)? In addition to making sure the Holocaust didn't happen, should He have also made sure slavery didn't happen? In addition to making sure slavery didn't happen, should He have also made sure the financial crisis of 2008 didn't happen?
(I'm just trying to figure out when, where and how you believe He should be intervening.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
No cupper...you just didn't "get it". Katzpur understood what you were asking...but was then asking you how you think God should have gone about stopping it.
And, if you think God should stop evil, how much evil should God stop...just the "ultra-bad" evil (like what Hitler did), or all evil?
The "slam" on God that you proffer here is a very old one...much has been written on it.
Try this: Please Convince Me...it might help ya understand.
But let's take God out of the equation. Let's just take "The Problem of Evil" on its own.
Like...What should we do with people that are sooooooo evil they would buy jewelry, or a computer, or a television...when they know there are tens of millions of people starving to death at this very moment?
You know...people like US. I mean...what possible reason could we have for being so evil as to be like that? How much more heartless and cruel could we be? Buy a computer while others are starving to death?! WOW!...now THAT is as evil as evil gets!
Since you probably believe there is no God...and mankind is fully in charge of its own affairs. How do we deal with things like the great evil of greed...and the people that practice it (like you, and me, and everyone else on this board) to such a point that they would buy things they don't really need instead of buying food for people that are starving to death? Hey...if God is bad for not doing what He is supposedly capable of doing to stop evil...then so are we.
YOU play God...and tell us how YOU would deal with rotten, evil people like we are...and "square" things such as that?
These are valid questions/points. While they certainly don't prove there is a God, for myself these questions effectively respond to "the problem of evil" as an argument against the existence of God. It doesn't surprise me that non-theists won't tackle them.
Personally, I find nature's "survival of the fittest" attribute more troubling in regard to the question of God ... The animal kingdom existed long before humanity (and "free will") came on the scene. What purpose does suffering, death and destruction serve in the animal kingdom and how did it arise from a God who is Love?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains
In theory one would think so, but in actuality it does not seem to have worked that way for you.
Since the Bible is apparently something that really interests you, perhaps you could consider taking a class or two on how to actually read and study it?
I guess the concordances failed in their efforts to illuminate. But they did give me an insight of how twisted some of the explanations were, somewhat like those here.
Actually I got some verifiable history from the 7 volume SDA one. That was after filtering the fluff, but it was an interesting few months cross referencing. The SDA one actually discussed some of the discrepancies, however, as those do here, dismissed them with explanations that basically amounted to " one just needs to have faith".
I thought I would have a stab at this as you should all know my views pretty well by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
1. What should God have done to keep the Holocaust from happening? Should He just have killed Hitler prior to his rise to power? Do you think that would have done it? Or should He just have somehow made sure other countries intervened long before they did?
This question is a leading one and infers that the existence of god is a settled matter, it is not. It also asks with the assumption one has foreknowledge of what this god thinks or how he acts. If we follow that line of questioning we are pretty much back to the premise of the OP and that is questioning the rationale behind "blind" belief in that which is written IOW crazy stuff in the bible. Really what I have seen here are all the excuses from context, that was a different dispensation, free will etc. These are mere deflections and tries to do a bait and switch or argue a strawman. In reality, based on current societal norms and rationale, these types of verses are indefensible. No one here I am sure thinks that stoning of kids is morally objective or even that this was actually carried out, least of all anyone that is a parent. Yup we do feel like killing them sometimes yet we invariable do not. The love we have appears unconditional and once we have thrown our toys out the cot or whatever lets off the steam, we chill out and it is soon forgotten. Am I right?
If you are in agreement then it stands to reason that one would expect god to have similar or even better attributes. In the alleged teachings of Jesus, occasionally this aspect of unconditional love and acceptance comes through.
The question concerning the holocaust and what you would have god do really departs from the premise, the Jews were a called out people according to their bible. If this were true in any way, (I do not believe it is) then logic dictates that there should have been an exemption for them. However, if we look at the stories in the OT, there tends to be a theme of rebellion, partial annihilation and a remnant left to rebuild the race. We are usually taught this in the idea we should not (a 4 letter word) with god.
Based solely on the written word w/o gymnastics, this god, if real should have intervened divinely. No need for wiping Hitler off the map as he was not alone in this horror. Any form of divine intervention would have been reasonable w/o violence. If you think about it, this would have been one of those moments to confirm the so called calling/chosen status. If you hold to the concept that he spoke the universe into existence, this should have been a cake walk for him.
My father answered me in reference to this question at age 13 or so with the trial of Jesus where the Jews allegedly claimed "Let his blood be on our heads and the heads of our children" It seem reasonable to accept this as a possible answer but then it goes totally against, from what I have learned, Jewish tradition or even human nature for that matter.
Who in their right mind assuming they are superstitious would pronounce a curse upon themselves? That would be the equivalent of declaring "Let god strike me dead if..." I am sure if you said stuff like that you would have received a clip behind the ear? Is there not a verse suggesting "you should not tempt the Lord your God?"
It all seems to be a grand conspiracy to transfer blame onto the Jews which IMHO is exactly what the authors from Paul's sect were trying to do. It gets Rome off the hook for killing the messiah and with all the hand washing justifies the transfer of the salvation of the Jews to the Gentiles. History tends to tell us that Hitler was not the first to persecute Jews, that mindset was well entrenched long before he appeared on the scene.
There are oodles more reasons why Jesus was not accepted as the expected messiah and the lame and failed attempts of the author of Matthew to incorrectly cite fulfilled prophesy is what most accept as truth. The Jews and sceptics have both shown this to not be true or relevant.
The honest answer is that god did nothing as he really does not exist OR he is one uber super dick. It was in fact the madness and cruelty of man that did this. All dictators develop a god complex. They do not expect to be questioned. You can apply that quite easily to modern politicians too.
Quote:
2. How much "evil" should God permit? What should He let people get away with and what kinds of things should He make sure don't happen (presumably by killing off the "bad guys" before they do their damage)? In addition to making sure the Holocaust didn't happen, should He have also made sure slavery didn't happen? In addition to making sure slavery didn't happen, should He have also made sure the financial crisis of 2008 didn't happen?
This again is a very loaded question. It departs from the premise that god is an established fact. Everything following that was the acts of mere men and of course some of the stuff like slavery found justification in the bible. Based on the tales in the bible, god instructs killings of the "bad guys" but only appears to kill his chosen directly. Remember the calf? How was that justified? Even then men went out and killed with the sword. I was thinking of the tale of when the ground swallowed them up.
To put that in a modern context, you find out your kid smokes pot. Do you kill him/her or do you engage in other rehabilitation? Personally, pot is OK but that is just for me, I have smoked it and gotten off it 30 odd years ago. My folks found out and although hugely disappointed, when I came home with bugger all to my name other than my car and clothes, they took me in and helped me get back on my feet again.
Now Jesus allegedly said "If your son asks you for a bread, do you give him a stone? How much more does your Father in Heaven know..." Passages like this suggest a benevolent god and one with higher morals than a human parent concerning their kids. Yet when we do not cherry pick, we also see suggestions that we are to disobey our parents or love them less to follow Jesus and sort of encourages division. Most of you will see no harm in that passage but really who actually does it. From what I have seen, folk like me that diss the faith tend to be on the receiving end of wrath and scorn from christian parents, mine were disappointed but still loved me unconditionally. God help you if you turn out to be gay.
I could refute each and every answer offered here b/c at a time I too held those so called "values".
I guess the concordances failed in their efforts to illuminate. But they did give me an insight of how twisted some of the explanations were, somewhat like those here.
Actually I got some verifiable history from the 7 volume SDA one. That was after filtering the fluff, but it was an interesting few months cross referencing. The SDA one actually discussed some of the discrepancies, however, as those do here, dismissed them with explanations that basically amounted to " one just needs to have faith".
I'm very curious about something. Why don't you answer anyone else's questions??If God needs to intervene, give us specifics! When should he intervene? When should he let things run their course? Should he always intervene? I'm still waiting. Pretty much given up at this point. You're complaining but you're not offering any actual solutions beyond "God should have stopped it". If you don't really know specifically what you're expecting God to do differently, then what on earth is the point of this thread?
Holocaust is a punishment from God to the Jews because they killed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah and refused to believe and accept him.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,942,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
I'm very curious about something. Why don't you answer anyone else's questions??If God needs to intervene, give us specifics! When should he intervene? When should he let things run their course? Should he always intervene? I'm still waiting. Pretty much given up at this point. You're complaining but you're not offering any actual solutions beyond "God should have stopped it". If you don't really know specifically what you're expecting God to do differently, then what on earth is the point of this thread?
SeekerSA in the post #64 above answers in perhaps a better way than I would.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jews for Jesus
Holocaust is a punishment from God to the Jews because they killed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah and refused to believe and accept him.
Are you truly serious?
Without getting personal, which I do not intend to do, that type of thinking is seriously demented.
I thought I would have a stab at this as you should all know my views pretty well by now.
This question is a leading one and infers that the existence of god is a settled matter, it is not.
The OP asked people who believe that God is only good to explain why God didn't intervene. So, for the sake of answering the OP it is theoretically settled.
The rest of your post was about taking the God of the Christian bible to task, but that was not the parameters that the op put forth. S/he put forth the supposition only that the God a person believes in is good.
And this is why so many people have turned their backs on organized religion. No compassion and no empathy for those that are harmed.
One just gets psycho babble of God loves us but allows us to have free will.
Why would anyone not previously exposed to religion even think joining a sect that thinks in this manner.
There is the other side of this too. Isle Royale is studied by biologists for purposes of the prey vs predator relation in evolution. And how too many prey being wiped out negatively affects the predators.
The other side to this that I spoke of are the atheists that bemoan tragedies and sufferings yet champion the theory of evolution and conception of no God.
Why are you complaining about the Jewish Holocaust then? The theory of evolution should suffice as your explanation. And given no God exists nothing was immoral about the deaths in the Holocaust. One side simply won, the other side simply lost.
Notice how scientists that never get involved to stop the violent attacks of an animal on another (as in the chimp video), but only silently record, watch, and then hypothesize on what occurred.
Your example the Holocaust was a direct result of science anyways. The scientific propositions of eugenics.
Bemoaning the deaths of holocaust members or puppies tossed out of the windows of moving cars... strikes me as religious sentimentality.
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