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That Jesus described his death as a ransom payment is clear. But to whom was the ransom paid? Jesus never said.
So out of this one statement comes enough books to fill 100 libraries the size of the Library of Congress. We get 100's of theories on to who, what and how the ransom is paid: to the devil? Nope says theologians. Gives to much power to the devil. To God then? Nope. Makes an evil monster of Him. To God and the devil maybe? Nope. Too confusing. Here's a list of the contents of the article above:
1.A Ransom Payment
2.Satisfaction/Penal Substitution <--------
3.A Critique of Satisfaction/Penal Substitution
4.The Meaning of Redemption
5.Christ Died "For" Us
6.Propitiation or Expiation? <--------
7.Substitution or Participation? <------
8. Other Theories<---------
And is it really a free gift? How can it be? If Jesus pays our debt to God/devil then it's not really free since we then become indebted to Jesus to accept Him or burn in hell. And the kicker is that theologians say "God doesn't send you to hell, you do--because you rejected Jesus."
But it doesn't stop there. Everybody knows the infamous "tortuous" debates in the Christianity forum over who gets saved:
Everybody:
Quote:
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men [to be] saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
or just some of us:
Quote:
“Then [these] will go away to eternal punishment, but [those] to eternal life.”
But wait a second. Do the ones who go to hell burn forever as the verse above says, or are they annihilated like this and dozens of other similar verses say:
Quote:
the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will perish” They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” “…rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. ...like an oak whose leaf withers, and like a garden without water; Though you seek them you shall not find them.
And it's not just some or everybody, but who exactly? People specifically and particularly chosen by God?
Quote:
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
or everybody? (see 1Timothy above)
And it doesn't stop there. Do our spirits lie dormant in the grave in soul-sleep?
Quote:
For the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
or are they conscious in heaven?
Quote:
[For to be] out of the body [is to be] present with the Lord.
Listening to Bayless Conley tonight, "Have a love affair with your Bible". Well, if you're hot for a love affair with confusion....then definitely have a love affair with your Bible.
Reading about atonement
This sentence appears:
So out of this one statement comes enough books to fill 100 libraries the size of the Library of Congress. We get 100's of theories on to who, what and how the ransom is paid: to the devil? Nope says theologians. Gives to much power to the devil. To God then? Nope. Makes an evil monster of Him. To God and the devil maybe? Nope. Too confusing. Here's a list of the contents of the article above:
The Doctrine of Atonement is not confusing. It is instead so simple a child can understand it. "All deserve eternal death, but our Lord Jesus Christ, because He loved us, died for us instead on the cross." There's nothing difficult about that at all.
What's confusing is not the Biblical Doctrine of Atonement, but the multitude of modern man's attempts to change Jesus' sacrifice into something it isn't. It's man's attempts to explain away, not explain, what is the central theme of the Bible, that fills those 100 libraries the size of the Library of Congress. It's not the Doctrine of Atonement that's difficult to understand. It's that mankind does not want to believe and accept it. They don't want to accept that they deserve death. They don't want to accept that we are sinful and God so hates sin He was willing to sacrifice His only begotten son. They don't want to "carry a cross" that requires self-sacrifice to be Christ-like. Lastly, they don't want to follow the "way, the truth and the life," for that path is seen as too narrow, a path not all will either choose or be offered a chance to follow. The one way to eternal life through the atonement of Jesus Christ is then viewed as unfair and unjust.
The Doctrine of Atonement is not confusing. It is instead so simple a child can understand it. "All deserve eternal death, but our Lord Jesus Christ, because He loved us, died for us instead on the cross." There's nothing difficult about that at all.
What's confusing is not the Biblical Doctrine of Atonement, but the multitude of modern man's attempts to change Jesus' sacrifice into something it isn't. It's man's attempts to explain away, not explain, what is the central theme of the Bible, that fills those 100 libraries the size of the Library of Congress. It's not the Doctrine of Atonement that's difficult to understand. It's that mankind does not want to believe and accept it. They don't want to accept that they deserve death. They don't want to accept that we are sinful and God so hates sin He was willing to sacrifice His only begotten son. They don't want to "carry a cross" that requires self-sacrifice to be Christ-like. Lastly, they don't want to follow the "way, the truth and the life," for that path is seen as too narrow, a path not all will either choose or be offered a chance to follow. The one way to eternal life through the atonement of Jesus Christ is then viewed as unfair and unjust.
Okay, as long as we can keep the atonement simple that's fine by me. But was the debt payable to satan or God? Was God's honor stained by our sin? Is a baby under God's wrath i.e. hated by Him immediately upon birth because of original sin?
Also could you address the issues of eternal destination and consciousness/unconsciousness of the soul upon death? I struggle with finding answers to these because the Bible doesn't adequately answer them.
I just posted a reply on something similar. So I'm gonna copy and paste some of it to help you out.
1. The ransom quote - If you were to give me a scripture I could work around it better. Translating someone else's thoughts can be difficult if they have no scripture to back it up.
“It is finished” didn't mean Jesus was finished. After all, Jesus was God robed in flesh. God is never finished. It meant a debt was paid in full. When Jesus used those words, He meant there was absolutely nothing left to be paid on the debt of our sin. As a result, though we’re all guilty sinners, God can now forgive us when we trust in Christ to be our substitute. If you remember, before the death of Jesus, they had Passover. Once a year they would come with their sacrifices to the temple as a way to atone for their sins. Jesus died at Passover. When He passed, the veil leading into the temple was torn. From then on, there was a new way of atoning for our sins BECAUSE Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He paid a debt He did not owe. After the ultimate sacrifice was made, no more sacrifices of innocent animals were needed once a year at Passover for atonement. That was done, over with, finished. Do you remember after His death, the day of Pentecost? It can be found in Acts. The old sacrificial ways were over with, the plan of salvation began.
2. Is it free? And what is "it"?
When Jesus came to earth he purchased a plan of salvation through His death, burial and resurrection. These three things are VERY symbolic. His death represents our repentance. His burial represents our being baptized. His resurrection represents the Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues. We have to repent of our sins daily, our flesh must die. We have to be buried in His name through baptism, submerged under water. And last, we have new life, our spiritual resurrection, when we receive that precious gift of the Holy Ghost. That is God's plan of Salvation.
John 3:5 (NLT) Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
Water = Baptism
Spirit = Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues)
Act 2:38-39 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
How do I know the Holy Ghost meant to speak in tongues?
Acts 10:44:46 (NKJV)
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
3. Quote: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men [to be] saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
It's important to read the whole chapter when quoting scripture. That way you can see what they're referring to. This chapter is talking about prayer, intercession and those who live a Godly and honest life.
4. I'm not going to use your quote because it was taken out of context, somewhat. Here's the KJV of that scripture:
Matt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed.
This is a parable. A parable is an image or story to illustrate a lesson. This parable is talking about three servants. I highly urge you to read it and understand what it's really talking about. It's only a couple verses long. It starts at Matthew 25:14. Think of it this way, remember the story about the boy who cried wolf? And remember the meaning behind that story? Well, if that story were in the Bible it would be a parable to illustrate a lesson. Are you following me? I hope so. I'm trying to keep it simple. I want you to understand that reading the Bible shouldn't be confusing. ALWAYS READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER!! I didn't learn that until last year! It really makes a huge difference!!!
5. Psalms 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
This scripture comes right after it speaks of a Godly man, he (a Godly man) shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
So you see, this scripture is saying the ungodly man is not like the man who is a tree planted by the water bringing up good fruit. Instead, he will be like chaff which the wind will blow away.
What is chaff? Chaff is a material consisting of seed coverings and small pieces of stem or leaves that have been separated from the seeds.
BASICALLY, small particles/dust!
The ungodly will be like dust blowing in the wind.
I'm having a hard time with the tail end of this, it seems to be a conglomeration of scriptures put into one sentence. Could you clarify for me a little better???
Quote -- They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” “…rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. ...like an oak whose leaf withers, and like a garden without water; Though you seek them you shall not find them. --
6. Romans 8:28-29
I'M THRILLED TO ANSWER THIS ONE!!!!!
Let me switch to a different translation. Sometimes you need to do that if you don't understand or if you're confused. Then, remember, go back a few scriptures and see what it's talking about.
(NKJV) 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Do you remember what I said in the beginning of this post? About being born again of the water and spirit? Spirit meaning the Holy Ghost, AKA speaking in tongues? THIS is a GREAT scripture that accentuates the beauty of tongues. Intercession is a deeper form of speaking in tongues. Not everyone who speaks in tongues will interceed. Intercessors are very special. And special to God. Speaking in tongues is our spirits way of communicating with God. God is a spirit. So we have to step into our spiritual side and communicate with God in that heavenly tongue. He still wants us to talk with him like we do our friends. But God desires to be intimate with us. After all, the Bible says Jesus will come back for His bride. Would you want to marry someone who doesn't want to be intimate with you? In order to be intimate with Him we have to draw closer to Him. And one way of doing that is speaking in tongues. Doesn't matter which country you come from or what language you speak. The Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, is one language. People who have an intimate relationship with God will step into a different realm in the spirit world. There are many different type of intercessory prayer. You can definitely look those up and find the many different types. When we intercede for something, our spirit is in DEEP prayer mode. You've truly reached the throne of God. God LOVES intercession. If you really want to catch God's attention, intercession is the way to go. If you're not an intercessor and need an answer, healing, deliverance, ANYTHING from God, you need to call on someone you know who intercedes and have them pray for you. I used to call on people like that when I needed something. But I don't have to anymore. I gave myself, wholeheartedly, to God. I told Him to break me down, reshape me and humble me. I wanted to be used mightily of God and I was a willing vessel. He honored my sacrifices and I stepped into a new realm of prayer. Intercession is the most beautiful gift God could have ever given me.
So these scriptures are referring to those who were called by God to be intercessors. They have found favor with the Lord. They have gone where others choose not to go. They are called for a purpose. Those intercessory prayers work together for good. He glorifies the intercessors.
7. Do our spirits lie dormant in the grave in soul-sleep?
Quote:
For the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
This scripture does not go hand in hand with your question. Let me address the scripture first, then I'll address your soul-sleeping question in #8.
KJV is the most accurate translation.
Ecc 9:3-5 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
As you can see, it's basically saying people who are alive know that one day death will come. There is a beginning to life and there's an end. Death does not escape ANYONE. When you die you know nothing because you're dead. Your body is not working anymore and is useless. At least a living dog can bark. But a lion is much more powerful, cunning and swift than a dog while he is living. The point is, no matter what your abilities are before death, they become completely useless after death. Use your life while you have it. If you are a Christian, you need to dedicate your life to the God while you are living and use your life for His Glory while you have it.
8. As far as your question about soul-sleeping, let me give you a scripture.
1 Thess 4:13-18 (NLT)
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. 15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
-Does this make any sense? It starts by saying not to weep and mourn over the death of a believer because we saw Jesus die and He rose again. Now we know there truly is life after death!
-The Bible makes several references to the dead as being asleep. So we know once we die, we go into a state of sleep. Think of it this way, when you fall asleep, do you have any concept of time? When I wake up I sometimes feel like I JUST laid my head down on the pillow. This will be the same for those who have died.
-Reading on, you will see the dead are only asleep. They have no concept of time. When the Lord comes down from Heaven, before the living believers are raptured, He will let the dead in Christ arise first. Which, to me, shows a sign of respect for those who have lived a Godly life and died before us. After the dead in Christ rise, those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
**As far as those who were NOT believers, that's a completely different story! They shall remain in their graves until the day of judgement.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
**Once Jesus comes back and the believers are raptured, He will cast satan, the beast (antichrist) and the false prophet into the bottomless pit and they will be bound for a thousand years. We will reign with the Lord for a thousand years on earth. This is called the 1000 years of peace. The lion will lay with the lamb. There will be no more wars, murders, chaos, etc. After the 1000 years of peace, God will set satan loose for a season. Satan will go out into the world deceiving the nations, gathering up his army. Then God will pour out His wrath devouring them and will destroy the earth.
Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
**IN CLOSING... I want to add something to #8. Many people can take scriptures out of context. They will say, "I'm a believer in Christ so I will go to Heaven." Once saved always saved is NOT what being a believer is all about. Let me give you something to chew on... The Bible NEVER contradicts itself. Why? Because God cannot lie. Who would want to believe in a God who lies? If one scripture were to contradict another that would be deceit and a lie. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I have a friend who believes in once saved always saved. She gives me the scripture about those that believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. But it says in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So if my friend says "those that believe in Him will not perish" then I can say "Him" means "the word" - "Those that believe in the WORD". What's the word? Easy... The Bible! We must live according to the Bible. If you believe in once saved always saved, then tell me why does the scriptures give countless warnings about going to hell?? Take a look at Galatians 5:19-21. After all, if it were once saved always saved then why does it contradict this scripture? “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit." I can quote a PLETHORA of scriptures that would disprove once saved always saved. If there were ever a time to reconsider that theory, now would be it!
Matt 7:13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
Okay, as long as we can keep the atonement simple that's fine by me. But was the debt payable to satan or God? Was God's honor stained by our sin? Is a baby under God's wrath i.e. hated by Him immediately upon birth because of original sin? Also could you address the issues of eternal destination and consciousness/unconsciousness of the soul upon death? I struggle with finding answers to these because the Bible doesn't adequately answer them.
All right. If someone approached me with a list of questions like yours, I would schedule an hour long meeting with them in my office. I would ask them some personal background questions to find out if they considered themselves a Christian, and what they based that on. If they're a Christian, I'd ask where they've been, where they're at , and where they'd like to be in their walk. Then we'd pray. After all this we'd get into their questions.
Since we don't have that ability to meet face-to-face, I've read back through some of your threads and posts starting in 2010. Honestly, I'm not sure if you consider yourself a Christian. Do you? Some of your posts lead me to think you are/were an universalist. Recently, it seems you're an atheist. Would you be willing to fill in the missing pieces for me?
Honestly, my time is in short supply. I thought maybe my insights after years of ministry could help people. The last thing I want is to spend time answering involved questions that can take an hour gathering the information for, only to have someone on the other end who is watching Scooby-Doo and eating Fruit Loops while reading it. Now you know where I'm coming from. What about you?
So out of this one statement comes enough books to fill 100 libraries the size of the Library of Congress. We get 100's of theories on to who, what and how the ransom is paid: to the devil? Nope says theologians. Gives to much power to the devil. To God then? Nope. Makes an evil monster of Him. To God and the devil maybe? Nope. Too confusing.
I would be curious as to what Greek word is translated "ransom".
To hold someone for ransom implies, in modern usage, some sort of extortion, and I very much doubt that is the intent of the original authors here. Christ is said to have "given his life as ransom" for us. Presumably the gospel authors would be influenced by OT ideas of the concept of ransom, and indeed, if you look at the OT verses where that word is rendered in English translations at least, it carries with it more the idea of paying to god some just penalty or price in exchange for being let off the hook. So I would say it's just a clumsy (in terms of modern English usage) way of talking about paying a debt to god. The concept being that god, being holy, demands justice for sin, and Christ's sacrifice satisfies that.
I have never really had an issue with the clarity of scripture on this particular issue. It is, compared to some things, crystal clear. God makes demands, we fail to measure up, we are guilty, the guilt must be paid for, and only Christ was qualified to do so.
Regrettably, while this is clear enough within the context of scripture, it is irrelevant to the existence of god in the first place, and to the validity of scripture as revelation of divine knowledge. It is simply a teaching that forms the basis for some dogma of a particular religion.
I would be curious as to what Greek word is translated "ransom".
To hold someone for ransom implies, in modern usage, some sort of extortion, and I very much doubt that is the intent of the original authors here. Christ is said to have "given his life as ransom" for us. Presumably the gospel authors would be influenced by OT ideas of the concept of ransom, and indeed, if you look at the OT verses where that word is rendered in English translations at least, it carries with it more the idea of paying to god some just penalty or price in exchange for being let off the hook. So I would say it's just a clumsy (in terms of modern English usage) way of talking about paying a debt to god. The concept being that god, being holy, demands justice for sin, and Christ's sacrifice satisfies that.
I have never really had an issue with the clarity of scripture on this particular issue. It is, compared to some things, crystal clear. God makes demands, we fail to measure up, we are guilty, the guilt must be paid for, and only Christ was qualified to do so.
Regrettably, while this is clear enough within the context of scripture, it is irrelevant to the existence of god in the first place, and to the validity of scripture as revelation of divine knowledge. It is simply a teaching that forms the basis for some dogma of a particular religion.
God was the one being paid. Romans 3 states that Jesus was the propitiation for our sin -- so that God's wrath is not poured out on men.
The Doctrine of Atonement is not confusing. It is instead so simple a child can understand it. "All deserve eternal death, but our Lord Jesus Christ, because He loved us, died for us instead on the cross." There's nothing difficult about that at all.
And what exactly has changed since Jesus's sacrifice and resurrection? Other than the formation of a messianic cult that grew to become a full-fledged religion - what has changed? Is the world a better place? Are there less wars, less poverty, less sickness? Even those things with which God cursed humanity in the Garden of Eden still exist. Childbirth still hurts, we still have to farm, and those poor snakes still have to slither around without any feet.
At any rate, the fact that the Atonement Doctrine makes absolutely no appreciable sense should also be so simple that even a child could see it. But thanks to heavy-handed indoctrination by our culture and community, most children grow up believing they have no intrinsic worth as a human being, a thoroughly repugnant doctrine that I have often compared with that of an abused wife and a battering husband.
I cannot even begin to express my utter contempt for a philosophy that attempts to coax out the pride and dignity of a human being so that he/she can be convinced that only through God does that person have any value or worth. That is precisely what abusive husbands do to their wives - and if the wife ever thinks of leaving, the threats come. Like, say, being threatened with eternal torment.
In fact, I see nothing at all beautiful or holy about Christ's sacrifice. It was just another blood sacrifice to appease a god - no different than when the Aztecs made blood sacrifices to their own gods. Plenty of people have sacrificed themselves to save others before Jesus, and plenty have done so afterwards. And they did it without the knowledge of being God and immune to real death.
Perhaps people are beginning to see the Atonement Doctrine more for what it is - a forced contract sealed in blood issued by a dictatorial and fascistic God who loves us without respecting us and therefore has no qualms at all about throwing us to his pet Lucifer in the pit of Hell.
WHICH ... reminds me about how the God vs. Satan match-up is NOT about good vs. evil. It is about good partnering with evil; it is about God being in collusion with his own worst enemy, an alliance of Holy and Unholy to war against we humans. That's what it REALLY is.
Assuming any of this religious mysticism was actually true, of course.
[quote=mordant;33236439]I would be curious as to what Greek word is translated "ransom".
I tried to find this scripture that was being quoted, and never found one. I just copied and pasted key words into the search engine. I would definitely like to know where they are getting this reference from so I can look at it in depth. We must always go to the scripture and read it like it's meant to be read, instead, it seemed as if someone was just quoting their version of the scripture.
May I say looking at the Title....the Bible doesn't love anything...it is a book.
Subtle, but gotta watch this kind of incorrect thinking...it leads to more
incorrect ideas....ok....continue.
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