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Actually . . . I thought it was humorous. One small nitpick, Shirina. There are those of us who believe in creatio ex deo. The Big Bang is essentially creatio ex materia. Both are apriori premises that cannot be substantiated. They represent preferences.
While what Shiloh wrote may have been something I might have written myself, it was most definitely Shiloh who wrote it.
Sure, it might be humorous, but it is also misleading and untrue. It's not even true in a parody sense.
Atheists don't believe anything "magically" exploded or "magically" rearranged themselves. What this little slogan attempts to do is to insert "magic" where a theist would insert "God," which shows that even when hounding atheists they can't let go of the concept of gods and magic.
Where they would say "God" and "magic," an evolution-and-Big-Bang-Believing atheist would say, "We don't know yet."
It is highly disingenuous to imply that we have accepted "magic" as the cause of anything, and I would defy anyone who thinks that slogan is true to pick up a book on cosmology and find one instance where a scientist claims that it all happened via magical spells and incantations.
What's more is that, by claiming atheists believe things "magically" occurred in an attempt to make us look dim-witted, the theists in this case made themselves look dim-witted. If they are going to use magic in such a scornful way, then perhaps they should ask themselves what mechanism God used to create something from nothing.
One can not interpose God between themselves and magic ... and then pretend that no magic was involved (and I have seen them say this). Just because God used magic doesn't mean it wasn't magic. THEY are the ones making the claim that the universe essentially came into existence through incantations, boiling cauldrons, eye of newt, and runes drawn on the floor - NOT atheists.
I don't think it was meant to be humorous I have seen that before on posters and such. Actually the site for this is Liberal Logic 101 and they are not trying to be just funny - they are mocking evolutions and Atheists as well as anything they deem 'liberal.'
Those others are at least logical - creatio ex nihilo is not. And not all a priori premises or axioms are equal. The idea that God can do anything and that he is all powerful therefore he can affect nothing is completely unjustified as a premise and is only asserted to exonerate himself from this logical fallacy. At least you have some standing Mystic.
I have seen (and posted) similar from atheists using the Jesus story "Ta Dah!" . . . so whether or not it was intended to be humorous . . . IMO it was. I would apologize for thinking you were Shirina . . . but I would consider that a compliment.
While what Shiloh wrote may have been something I might have written myself, it was most definitely Shiloh who wrote it.
My sincere apologies, Shirina . . . a senior moment.
Quote:
Sure, it might be humorous, but it is also misleading and untrue. It's not even true in a parody sense.
Atheists don't believe anything "magically" exploded or "magically" rearranged themselves. What this little slogan attempts to do is to insert "magic" where a theist would insert "God," which shows that even when hounding atheists they can't let go of the concept of gods and magic.
Where they would say "God" and "magic," an evolution-and-Big-Bang-Believing atheist would say, "We don't know yet."
It is highly disingenuous to imply that we have accepted "magic" as the cause of anything, and I would defy anyone who thinks that slogan is true to pick up a book on cosmology and find one instance where a scientist claims that it all happened via magical spells and incantations.
What's more is that, by claiming atheists believe things "magically" occurred in an attempt to make us look dim-witted, the theists in this case made themselves look dim-witted. If they are going to use magic in such a scornful way, then perhaps they should ask themselves what mechanism God used to create something from nothing.
One can not interpose God between themselves and magic ... and then pretend that no magic was involved (and I have seen them say this). Just because God used magic doesn't mean it wasn't magic. THEY are the ones making the claim that the universe essentially came into existence through incantations, boiling cauldrons, eye of newt, and runes drawn on the floor - NOT atheists.
The use of humor to mock and ridicule seems to be an equal opportunity tactic by both sides, Shirina. Obviously I don't credit either of them with any validity . . . except in the most extreme POE cases. I just enjoy light-hearted banter and repartee. While I consider God an important topic . . . we tend to take it far too seriously all the time. I could not love a humorless God.
My sincere apologies, Shirina . . . a senior moment.
The use of humor to mock and ridicule seems to be an equal opportunity tactic by both sides, Shirina. Obviously I don't credit either of them with any validity . . . except in the most extreme POE cases. I just enjoy light-hearted banter and repartee. While I consider God an important topic . . . we tend to take it far too seriously all the time. I could not love a humorless God.
True, true ... it doesn't hurt to take a step back now and again, have a good laugh, and then lop off some more heads later.
Yeah, it all depends on how it's used. If those slogans are posted for humor's sake, I'm okay with that. I just worry that someone on EITHER side will post one of those and actually believe it!
1) Atheism does not say anything in regard to Origins.
2) Atheism is simply a 'belief' that no God/gods exist as a counter to the 'belief' God/gods exist.
3) The irony in that statement is amazing since it is theists who believe in the illogical - that something can come from nothing - by believing in creatio ex nihilo - creation from nothing. They have been saying this for years now - years! And it does not matter how many superlatives you add to God since no matter how powerful he is there is still no way he can affect 'nothing.' Explain that one?
This just shows me that certain people have about as much sense and critical thinking skills as a gnat.
I have always wonder what idiot wrote that. Thanks for the information.
God can do anything, that is why. He can take nothing and make something but if you depend on nothingness becoming something without a Supreme Being, that is nonsense.
So atheists just do not believe in God and that's that. No reason really, just a non-belief? It seems so.
02-12-2014, 11:47 PM
2K5Gx2km
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144
God can do anything, that is why. He can take nothing and make something but if you depend on nothingness becoming something without a Supreme Being, that is nonsense.
So atheists just do not believe in God and that's that. No reason really, just a non-belief? It seems so.
You just don't get it:
1) So God can defy logic?
2) Saying God can do anything is not an explanation - just your assertion that makes not sense in light of the parameters of nothing. I guess he can lie or make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it either. You don't just get to make up definitions that defy simple logic while at the same time explain nothing. You don't just get to eradicate inconvenient facts by defining them out of existence.
3) How does someone, anyone, even God, take nothing? Are you listening to yourself? There is nothing to take.
Well these commercial creationists otta go to confession and humbly ask forgiveness for railroading education when right now, is not the time to distract from the serious problems. This creationism is all about the do rae mi. If someone has a belief in creationism super, don't be so insecure with the approach where science tries to learn how things work. Its crazy, the people that should be debating the creation people is the theist . The leaders of creationism know exactly what they are doing with these info mercials, generating a living, books and on and on. There is religion class and there is science class. If the world was created 10 minutes ago it is the same argument. Whats the difference? all man has is the observable , the creationist wants to toss the observable . Its almost unbelievable how the people can get mixed up in this both the science and the creationist. Affording time to the creationist is not even worth it. If the world was created at this time or that time it should make zero dif to the believer, all the believer is doing is putting limitations on the creator. Maybe the bible is right in some strange unknown mysterious way, maybe not but the stories as parables have the value not the exact facts. Arguing over the exact facts misleads the value in the stories and the creationist becomes away from the value.
Anyway, obviously if nothing is the #1 issue, there is more to nothing then what we know is nothing. If there ever was a nothing which is entirely nothing as man can understand, then this entry and who ever may have got this far in reading it, would be nothing. So, well there always must have been a something otherwise there would always be nothing , that something is what the theist calls God. So 'something' does not need to be 'created' because there must of always been a something.
My sister called last weekend, she lives quite a distance away and has two boys, I guess about 6 and 9 or so. She said the boy is a bit of a smarty ( not surprised in our network of things) he asked his mother well who created god? I gave her this answer and the only problem she said was he may not be able to follow. I re explained and she automatically replied yes, yes he can understand this. Another thing, I know some active scientists who are Christian, if they were asked or had a survey with their busy schedule I know exactly what they would do, give it to one of their assistants and say how did this get in my lab please?
So maybe were on to something, the atheist scientist is in the lab morning noon day and night, but the theist scientist is only in the lab for the day and then goes home and has a resolve, a belief and no more work. So the resolve in a god belief is a found focus where a universal and mysterious good remains in a distinct and infinite pure form, in the focus which represents the 'something' referred to above. So I guess what it boils down to is the atheist requires to put something....in the always something gap just explained. What to do ? I don't know to be honest because I have never been an atheist. One other thing of confusion I noticed...Belief is not a constant thing with the believer, belief is not needed sometimes, it is not a knowing , no..it is just the absence of not needing to work, feet up, let it be what it is. Belief is an action word, if an idea is believed for example I believe in myself, I do not need a belief, I just go about with the attributes. So it seems we have uncovered a communication error in what is understood in some of these terms. I can't believe those two boring guys in the clip, lasted about 25% , I noticed the audience looked really keen taking notes and sitting on the edge of their seat>(sarcasm) Its too bad, so many problems in education and getting the youngsters interested and the adults arguing for the sake of $$$. The adult world has broken its contract with the next generations in almost every way. Things like this get me going.
Saw another debate between Harris and a religion guy at Notre Dame...Harris refused to co-operate and stay on subject, railroad after railroad, the moderator head of philosophy at the university refused to stop or get some order in the conversation, > poor example>inadequate>cutting a pay cheque for nothing. Afterwards the students were allowed questions, they were older teens. no way would 12 year olds be so daft, toned down a bit the 12 year olds would of been able to follow ahead of these students. That is where its at, and another one of my sister's is a teacher so I can keep up on what the ability is in the class rooms. I don't think allot not all people, really really understand or can see what is going on with this present generation.
Last edited by alexcanter; 02-13-2014 at 05:02 AM..
So atheists just do not believe in God and that's that. No reason really, just a non-belief? It seems so.
Do you believe in any other gods besides the one of the bible? If not, why not? Something to keep in mind. Atheists only believe in one less god than you do.
God can do anything, that is why. He can take nothing and make something but if you depend on nothingness becoming something without a Supreme Being, that is nonsense.
Unfortunately for believers, no ... that actually isn't "nonsense," especially in light of the flawed logic you're using to construct your argument.
So let's see if I'm missing a beat here.
What you're saying is that the atheist claim that "something" came from nothing all by itself is nonsense. Except, why? Why is it nonsense? It wouldn't be because "something" poofing into existence all by itself would break all the laws of physics as we currently understand them ... would it?
So in order to circumvent the atheist idea of something originating from nothing (huh, those silly atheists!) you've added an omnipotent Supreme Being to the equation - a Supreme Being who not only exists outside of space and time but who is also eternal, having neither a beginning or end. Because we know magic is ridiculous and doesn't really exist, we need a Supreme Being to ... uh ... um ... ah ... magically create the universe from, ah ... nothing. Yeah.
See the problem?
You can't say that the Big Bang could not have happened on its own because it's impossible therefore, you add an equally impossible Supreme Being to facilitate the impossible Big Bang. You haven't actually explained anything or added to our knowledge of the universe. All you've done is to use one unknown to explain another unknown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144
So atheists just do not believe in God and that's that. No reason really, just a non-belief? It seems so.
We have reasons for our lack of belef. We didn't just decide randomly. Our reasons are all over this area of the forum. Have you been reading at all?
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You don't just get to make up definitions that defy simple logic while at the same time explain nothing. You don't just get to eradicate inconvenient facts by defining them out of existence. 
