Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As always, I am impressed by your theological gymnastics, skillfully working around what the texts says and introducing inventive "context" to come to a wholly different conclusion of what it means.
I particularly enjoyed this one:
Quote:
Quote:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (vv.21-25)
Again....read the context. If you bother to go back and read the story of Abraham, you'll see that he was declared righteous because of his faith -- well before he DID anything.
Creative indeed to conclude that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith after James just wrote (rhetorically) "Was not Abraham...justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works..."
Yes, there are definitely two opposing ideas in the Bible about salvation. One is that God chooses who will be saved, and the other one is that people have a choice:
God chooses:
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all whowere appointed for eternal life believed.
Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(why some believe and some are blinded? Apparently God opens some people's eyes and leave others' eyes blinded?)
Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Mat 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
So, in conclusion, only those who were chosen by God will be able to believe.
The call goes out to many, but only the chosen ones will come. Right?
I am sure that most Christians nowdays believe that people can choose whether they can come to God or not. So I am sure they can supply the verses which talk about a person's choice, regardless of God's choosing.
Because even if there is a verse which says a person believed, it could still be that he only believed because he was chosen in the first place. As it says: predestined, chosen and then called.... (Eph 1:11,12)
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: Rom 9:12 not by works but by him who calls..Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (aka: on God's choosing)
This is really messed up. Paul is even admitting that it's not fair. And does he have the answer? No! He just says: you can't talk back to the Creator (even if it seems unfair). The Creator can do what he wants!
Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Of course the Potter DOES NOT have the right to do whatever he wants. We as people (who are supposedly worse than God) know that there are ethical consequences for creating lifeforms and we can't just do whatever we want. But apparently God can.
This teaching is really....well... not merciful, not forgiving. It's about God doing what he wants, whatever pleases him only. It's not fair in any way. He creates. He destroys. He decides to torture. Whatever he wants. And living beings are just supposed to be grateful if they happen to be the lucky ones whom God decided to choose for himself according to his whims.
WELL, even this shows the unkindness. This kind of a teaching teaches: everyone cares only about his skin. If God chose me, I will just praise the Lord and look down at those God did not choose. And Revelation even TEACHES to REJOICE when you see all this blood of all these sinners running in the streets! How bloodthirsty is that.
The God created by the people is certainly worthy of the people. This God resembles the peolple which created him. Pettiness, cruelty, dictatorship, jealousy, boastfullness, "I will squash you like a bug because I am bigger than you" kind of attitude -all this describes the God created in the Old Testament.
Thank goodness the New Testament people have softened this God a bit. Except that now they made a two sided God: cruel on one side and maybe (not sure how) merciful on the other side. Because even sending Jesus to die for us could have served God's own purposes in choosing people for himself so it could have been done for his wishes and his desires.
I think it's long overdue to modify the image of this God created by those other people. I am happy to see the New Age people doing exactly that: modifying things somewhat to create a nicer picture of a God.
It's all not real anyways. So if one has to believe something, at least it should be something nice and helpful and inspiring and comforting.
Yes, there are definitely two opposing ideas in the Bible about salvation. One is that God chooses who will be saved, and the other one is that people have a choice:
As always, I am impressed by your theological gymnastics, skillfully working around what the texts says and introducing inventive "context" to come to a wholly different conclusion of what it means.
I particularly enjoyed this one:
Creative indeed to conclude that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith after James just wrote (rhetorically) "Was not Abraham...justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works..."
just do both. have faith AND give alms.
problem solved.
works without faith is nothing.
faith without works is a shame.
Yes, one could do both if one can't figure out what's necessary because it's all so confusing.
But I think the point was to show that how can people claim that they know what they believe when no one can really explain things?
For example, there is a verse at the end of Revelation that God created a "new heaven" and a "new earth". First, why would God need a new heaven? Something wrong with the old one?
Second, I bet most people assume they're going to the current heaven.
And someone would say: it doesn't make a difference about which heaven I am going to, as long as it's a haven. Well, the point is: how do you even know what's going on in the first place when it just doesn't make sense altogether?
It's like "another heaven" idea doesn't fit into Christian ideology. So there is something in the Bible that is outside of Christian theology. Which means that Christian theology can't be all right, because it's like putting together a cabinet and having some parts left over when you're done. You know then that you didn't do it quite right.
There is also no explanation in Christian theology about the giants being born on earth. Surely you don't believe that angels can mate with humans? (That's how some explained this phenomenon).
Or about Jesus going down to hell to preach to spirits in prison. Christians believe that there is no second chances, once you died then it's over. You get judged. So then what good would it do for Jesus to go to preach to the spirits in prison? Well, some came up with a very "human nature kind of an explanation", they said: he went down to boast that he won. This doesn't sound like Jesus' behavior (at least not based on his behavior according to the Gospels).
And most Christians believe in hell. But sometimes when they picture hell, they picture the devil with a pitch fork and demons torturing souls. But according to the Bible, hell was a punishment place for satan and his demons, not his kingdom.
Or take a millennium kingdom vs heaven idea. I bet most Christians believe they will be living in heaven right after death. And yet, some also believe that there is a 1000 year kingdom of Christ here on earth. So in effect, Christians are not going to heaven for another 1000 years. And yet, most live under the impression that they are going straight to heaven.
So basically Christians think they know what they believe and what they are talking about, but these things show that it's not quite so.
None of us know what's going on. But some of us claim to know.
James 2:25-26 (NASB) In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Hello jimmiej.
Seems like a continuation of the same thought to me.
James 2:25-26 (NASB) In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Hello jimmiej.
Seems like a continuation of the same thought to me.
Thanks.
A body without the spirit is ineffective--it does not do anything, it has no action. To say that faith that does not display its necessary result "is dead" is to say that it does not do anything, it has no action, it does not save.
"You who say you have faith, show me your works!" says James. James is disputing with those who are saying that faith results in no expression. These are people who would say, "My faith does not require me to feed the hungry members of the congregation" or who did not feel that faith required them to constrain their tongues or their lusts.
But Paul has already said, "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
James' demand is in full accord with Paul. Faith necessarily results in good works, and if it does not, then it's not faith.
I would hasten to say, though, that "good works" are not necessarily obvious to the casual eye. For someone who starts out with a drug addiction he has kept secret, his first "good work" might be breaking that addiction...and perhaps no other person except his supplier will ever know. For a person who is negligent on the job, the first "good work" may be to become more attentive on the job...and perhaps no other person will know.
"The world" in the use of this parable does not mean all the people of the earth. It refers to the person's ideas or thoughts. If the illustration is figurative, then we can't expect everything in it to be literal. So every individual human being is represented by the word "world".
I think every parable is about one person.
When Paul and other new testament writers mention Noah, the world, fire, etc, they are referencing the symbols.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
